It depends what you mean by rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:08 pm Vacchagotta's confusion.
when you believe no self you are confused
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:08 pm Vacchagotta's confusion.
when you believe no self you are confused
Not at all. You merely need to understand the epistemological problems of positing a self. Once you see the reasoning is flawed, and so it is an irrational belief, it no longer becomes tenable. There is nothing which is experienced which is a self, and to posit there is one is not true by definition. There is no logical connection between "I" and "exist". A self then cannot be known. It is known as a mere concept only. A designation. A matter of linguistics with no underlying reality, thus having nominal existence only. The outcome of designation contact, if you will.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:14 pm
cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:08 pm Vacchagotta's confusion.
when you believe no self you are confused
Not at all.
sorry but no self is not the teaching


On Self, No Self, and Not-self
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:14 pm no underlying reality thus having nominal existence only.
"And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"


Ananda Sutta
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:14 pm
cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:11 pm

when you believe no self you are confused
Not at all.
sorry but no self is not the teaching


On Self, No Self, and Not-self
It is rather tragic to see you stuck in this endless circular logic. You have my sympathies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:14 pm no underlying reality thus having nominal existence only.
"And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"


Ananda Sutta
His problem was to still think in terms of a self that exists, yes. He is still giving life to the empty concept. He did not understand the irrationality of the idea, nor did he see how it comes to arise.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:17 pm It is rather tragic to see you stuck
life is a tragedy or a comedy
All life and existence is dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:20 pm His problem was to still think in terms of a self
worry about how you think
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:59 pm As a means to destroy the self
they believe no self
On the contrary, in the Brahmajāla Sutta the ucchedavādins come in seven flavours and they all believe in a self. And the Buddha concludes by stating this list of seven to be exhaustive: "Outside of these [seven] there is none."
Annihilationism (Ucchedavādā): Views 51–57

“There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honourable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

“Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: ‘The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self—divine, having material form, pertaining to the sense sphere, feeding on edible nutriment. That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self—divine, having material form, mind-made, complete in all its limbs and organs, not destitute of any faculties. That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of infinite space, (reached by) the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form, by the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, by non-attention to perceptions of diversity, (by contemplating) “Space is infinite.” That you neither know nor see, but I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way others proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of infinite consciousness, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of infinite space (by contemplating): “Consciousness is infinite.” That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death—at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of nothingness, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness (by contemplating): “There is nothing.” That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death—at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“To him another says: ‘There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self is completely annihilated. For there is, good sir, another self belonging to the base of neither perception nor non-perception, (reached by) completely surmounting the base of nothingness (by contemplating): “This is the peaceful, this is the sublime.” That you neither know nor see. But I know it and see it. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death—at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

“It is on these seven grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. Whatever recluses or brahmins proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being, all of them do so on these seven grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

“This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands … and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:57 pm
cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:59 pm As a means to destroy the self
they believe no self
On the contrary, in the Brahmajāla Sutta the ucchedavādins come in seven flavours and they all believe in a self.
no self leads to thinking of annihilation


but they also come to that conclusion


just in other ways
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Coëmgenu »

Writing in verse
is sometimes a sign
that a writer cares more about style than substance.

Junk food for thought.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:11 pm Writing in verse
is sometimes a sign
that a writer cares more about style than substance.

Junk food for thought.
I'm a poet
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Coëmgenu »

Go back we now will,
but what to? "Self" and "No Self?"
All is off-topic.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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