Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by mjaviem »

mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:27 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 am
With the cessation of craving there is no more clinging to the aggregates, which means the condition for existence, birth and future aggregates is no more. Whilst not being clung to the aggregates are still dukkha due to the dukkha of change and pain.
Why do you say dukkha of change and pain is the same dukkha im the first noble truth?
As soon as you can explain me this correctly I will stop thinking that liberation from all dukkha (as in the first Noble Truth) is right here right now and will start to see like you that "there are embers of dukkha (as in the first Noble Truth) cooling down until the moment of physical death". In the meantime I understand like this: that once desire is abandoned there are no more clinging to the aggregates therefore no more suffering, there could still be physical pain but that's not suffering because there's no clinging to it, there's still change but there's no suffering because there's no clinging to it. Once the fire of craving and desire goes out there are no embers. It may take time to reach understanding, it takes time to extinguish the fire, but once the fire goes out, at the instant of awakening, there is freedom from all suffering (as per the first Noble Truth).
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:27 am Why do you say dukkha of change and pain is the same dukkha im the first noble truth?
The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path for the abandoning of dukkha. In terms of dukkha there is:

“Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning.” - SN 45.165

Notice that the Noble Eight Fold Path is for the abandoning of all 3 types of dukkha. All 3 types can be found in the 1st Noble Truth. Upon awakening the dukkha of formations has ceased but the dukkha of pain and change remain; however, there is certain knowledge that even these forms of dukkha too will cease at the end of life since the condition for them arising again has ceased. It is important to view all conditioned dhammas as being dukkha, including not just painful vedanā but also neutral and pleasant ones. There simply cannot be awakening without such a view. The Buddha and Arahants, upon awakening, thus have this conception of the world as being inherently dukkha.

“Mendicants, these seven perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are very fruitful and beneficial. They culminate in the deathless and end with the deathless.

What seven? The perceptions of ugliness, death, repulsiveness of food, dissatisfaction with the whole world, impermanence, suffering in impermanence, and not-self in suffering. These seven perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are very fruitful and beneficial. They culminate in the deathless and end with the deathless.”
- AN 7.48
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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mjaviem
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:47 pm ...
Notice that the Noble Eight Fold Path is for the abandoning of all 3 types of dukkha. All 3 types can be found in the 1st Noble Truth...
How so? Why do you say all those three types of dukkha can be found in the first Noble Truth?
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:47 pm ...
Notice that the Noble Eight Fold Path is for the abandoning of all 3 types of dukkha. All 3 types can be found in the 1st Noble Truth...
How so? Why do you say all those three types of dukkha can be found in the first Noble Truth?
All the examples given in the 1st Noble Truth are impermanent and many of them involve pain. In terms of formations this can be read in relation to sorrow, lamentation etc and conditioned dhammas in general.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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More here:

“Good, good, bhikkhu! These three feelings have been spoken of by me: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three feelings have been spoken of by me. And I have also said: ‘Whatever is felt is included in suffering.’ That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations. That has been stated by me with reference to formations being subject to destruction … to formations being subject to vanishing … to formations being subject to fading away … to formations being subject to cessation … to formations being subject to change."

SN 36.11
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by mjaviem »

I'm quoting here what I regard important to understand this matter (I added some pali in case it is useful:
SN 45.165 Bodhi wrote: Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering.
“Tisso imā, bhikkhave, dukkhatā.
What three?
Katamā tisso?
Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change.
Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā—
These are the three kinds of suffering.
imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso dukkhatā.
The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning.
Imāsaṁ kho, bhikkhave, tissannaṁ dukkhatānaṁ abhiññāya pariññāya parikkhayāya pahānāya …pe… ayaṁ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvetabbo”ti.
Pañcamaṁ.
SN56.11 Bodhi wrote: “Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering:
Idaṁ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṁ ariyasaccaṁ
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ—saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.
DooDoot has pointed out to the following Sutta from which I'm transcribiing only the part for one aggregate but not all:
SN 22.1 Thanissaro wrote: ...
And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind? There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for people of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma—... doesn’t assume feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He is not seized with the idea that ‘I am feeling’ or ‘Feeling is mine.’ As he is not seized with these ideas, that feeling changes & alters. From the change & alteration in the feeling, there do not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair
....
So,
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 pm All the examples given in the 1st Noble Truth are impermanent and many of them involve pain. In terms of formations this can be read in relation to sorrow, lamentation etc and conditioned dhammas in general.
In my understanding the dukkha in the first noble truth is due to the five clinging aggregates. As soon as there is no more clinging there is no more birth, aging, illness, death, union..., separation..., not getting..., in brief the five aggregates subject to clinging.

Why do you say suffering due to pain and due to change still remain until death of an Arahant? Upon awakening, there is no seizeing with the idea that ‘I am feeling’ or ‘Feeling is mine.’ Feelings (and all the aggregates) still change but from that change suffering does not arise. There's detachment, there's no clinging. There's no suffering of the kind of birth, aging, illness, death, ..., there's no more aggregates subject to clinging, he stopped grasping. So you have no examples of impermanence and pain that cause suffering there once clinging stops.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:35 pm More here:

“Good, good, bhikkhu! These three feelings have been spoken of by me: pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three feelings have been spoken of by me. And I have also said: ‘Whatever is felt is included in suffering.’ That has been stated by me with reference to the impermanence of formations. That has been stated by me with reference to formations being subject to destruction … to formations being subject to vanishing … to formations being subject to fading away … to formations being subject to cessation … to formations being subject to change."

SN 36.11
This example I can't follow. It's in reference to formations but you explained before that dukkha due to formations is extinguished upon awakening:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:55 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:09 pm ... The Buddha never said the Arahant is free from all dukkha whilst alive.
What? Is this true? Living and breathing Arahants are not free from all dukkha?
Freedom from all dukkha is at the end of life, for Arahants. Whilst alive they still experience the dukkha of pain and of change, but not the dukkha of formations. At the end of life the dukkha of pain and change also cease without remainder. It's a common mis-understanding that the Buddha and Arahants are immediately free from all dukkha as soon as they awaken. It's more of a winding down. When a fire goes out the embers will still burn for a time.
So if you could explain a little more your point. How is it that upon ceasing of craving and clinging there is still the experience of suffering.

You mentioned from AN 7.48 the cultivation of the perception of suffering in impermanence, and not-self in suffering is beneficial. In what way one having perceived suffering in impermanence and not-self in suffering still experiences suffering?

To me all this is very important because it will imply a big change in my understanding so far. So thank you in advance.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:38 pm
In my understanding the dukkha in the first noble truth is due to the five clinging aggregates. As soon as there is no more clinging there is no more birth, aging, illness, death, union..., separation..., not getting..., in brief the five aggregates subject to clinging.
Also no sorrow, lamentation, grief or despair. I agree that when there is no more clinging there will be no more birth etc etc. Where I think we are diverging is in our understanding of how this happens. What has been abandoned is any future birth, aging, illness, death etc. In this life, there is still ageing, illness, sickness, union with what is displeasing and separation from what is pleasing. The formations I had in mind which I said were given up were the sorrow, lamentation, grief and despair. The 2nd dart of cetasikañca (SN 36.6).

"But, bhikkhus, when one has understood the impermanence of form, its change, fading away, and cessation, and when one sees as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘In the past and also now all form is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change,’ then sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair are abandoned. With their abandonment, one does not become agitated. Being unagitated, one dwells happily. A bhikkhu who dwells happily is said to be quenched in that respect." - SN 22.43

Whilst alive, there is still the 1st dart of raw painful experience. This is classed as dukkha also. This is, obviously, only fully abandoned at the end of life.
Why do you say suffering due to pain and due to change still remain until death of an Arahant? Upon awakening, there is no seizeing with the idea that ‘I am feeling’ or ‘Feeling is mine.’ Feelings (and all the aggregates) still change but from that change suffering does not arise. There's detachment, there's no clinging. There's no suffering of the kind of birth, aging, illness, death, ..., there's no more aggregates subject to clinging, he stopped grasping. So you have no examples of impermanence and pain that cause suffering there once clinging stops.
Yes, but there is still the dukkha of change and the dukkha of pain. The sense object, contact, sense consciousness and the vedanā & sañña that arise on said conditions are all inherently dukkha because they are subject to change, thus being unsatisfactory (which is part of what dukkha means).
This example I can't follow. It's in reference to formations but you explained before that dukkha due to formations is extinguished upon awakening:
The formations I was referring to were the wailing and gnashing of teeth. The cetasikañca, based on painful vedanā.
You mentioned from AN 7.48 the cultivation of the perception of suffering in impermanence, and not-self in suffering is beneficial. In what way one having perceived suffering in impermanence and not-self in suffering still experiences suffering?
If you are viewing something as dukkha its not being viewed as sukha. It is being viewed as dukkha because it's either a painful experience or because it is impermanent, therefore inherently dukkha and not-self (for the Arahant).
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”

These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
To me all this is very important because it will imply a big change in my understanding so far. So thank you in advance.
It is indeed very important to understand correctly.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm ... What has been abandoned is any future birth, aging, illness, death etc. In this life, there is still ageing, illness, sickness, union with what is displeasing and separation from what is pleasing. The formations I had in mind which I said were given up were the sorrow, lamentation, grief and despair. The 2nd dart of cetasikañca (SN 36.6).
...
I don't see anywhere in the Suttas saying that current birth, aging, illness, death, etc. are not abandoned. These are abandoned right here right know. The Arahant regards nothing as self, he has abandoned all the suffering altogether. (Quenched in SN 22.43 you are quoting does not mean burning embers still hurting.)
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm ...
Whilst alive, there is still the 1st dart of raw painful experience. This is classed as dukkha also. This is, obviously, only fully abandoned at the end of life.

...
Yes, but there is still the dukkha of change and the dukkha of pain. The sense object, contact, sense consciousness and the vedanā & sañña that arise on said conditions are all inherently dukkha because they are subject to change, thus being unsatisfactory (which is part of what dukkha means).
...
Painful experience of the first dart is there, of course is there, the pain does not magically goes away. And this was abandoned at the moment of awakening when seeing that that is not self. With no clinging no becoming, no suffering, right here and now.

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm ...
If you are viewing something as dukkha its not being viewed as sukha. It is being viewed as dukkha because it's either a painful experience or because it is impermanent, therefore inherently dukkha and not-self (for the Arahant).
...
Yes, seeing that something is dukkha and not attach to it is viewing correctly. There is the end of suffering, in the present.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:30 pm
I don't see anywhere in the Suttas saying that current birth, aging, illness, death, etc. are not abandoned. These are abandoned right here right know. The Arahant regards nothing as self, he has abandoned all the suffering altogether. (Quenched in SN 22.43 you are quoting does not mean burning embers still hurting.)
The Buddha grew old, got ill, had to enter meditation to relieve himself from excessive pain due to being old and ill and he died. What was abandoned was future birth, ageing, illness, pain and death.
Painful experience of the first dart is there, of course is there, the pain does not magically goes away. And this was abandoned at the moment of awakening when seeing that that is not self. With no clinging no becoming, no suffering, right here and now.
Painful experience is there. Pain is classified under dukkha. The Buddha taught the abandoning of all dukkha. It follows the abandoning of pain, and so all dukkha, only occurs at the end of life. What is abandoned immediately is the emotional reactions, intentions etc. If the Buddha was immediately free from all dukkha he would have been immediately free from all pain, so why did he then later say he was in pain and had to enter meditation to relieve himself of it? The Mahāsāṃghika too seemed to be uncomfortable with these facts, and so they developed the idea of a transcendental Buddha.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:36 pm ...
The Buddha grew old, got ill, had to enter meditation to relieve himself from excessive pain due to being old and ill and he died. What was abandoned was future birth, ageing, illness, pain and death.
...
Not only Gautama, but many people grew old, got ill with excessive pain and died. But the Buddha abandoned all that so that didn't happened to the Buddha.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:36 pm ...
Painful experience is there. Pain is classified under dukkha. The Buddha taught the abandoning of all dukkha. It follows the abandoning of pain, and so all dukkha, only occurs at the end of life. What is abandoned immediately is the emotional reactions, intentions etc. If the Buddha was immediately free from all dukkha he would have been immediately free from all pain, so why did he then later say he was in pain and had to enter meditation to relieve himself of it? The Mahāsāṃghika too seemed to be uncomfortable with these facts, and so they developed the idea of a transcendental Buddha.
It doesn't follow that the abandoning of all dukkha occurs at the end of life, With the break of the body, upon death, there's still dukkha, there are still wars, people ill, suffering and in despair. But all that is abandoned when the clinging to the aggregates is abandoned. He was free from pain indeed and I didn't new he entered meditation as a painkiller, but that's what I imagine he would have offered to anyone under excessive pain. out of compassion he would have offered a painkiller to anyone needing it desperately. And that's what he actuallly did his whole life...
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:04 am
Not only Gautama, but many people grew old, got ill with excessive pain and died. But the Buddha abandoned all that so that didn't happen to the Buddha.
Yet he complained of back pain and entered meditative states to escape said pain. He was therefore still experiencing old age and sickness, as well as pain.
It doesn't follow that the abandoning of all dukkha occurs at the end of life, With the break of the body, upon death, there's still dukkha, there are still wars, people ill, suffering and in despair. But all that is abandoned when the clinging to the aggregates is abandoned. He was free from pain indeed and I didn't new he entered meditation as a painkiller, but that's what I imagine he would have offered to anyone under excessive pain. out of compassion he would have offered a painkiller to anyone needing it desperately. And that's what he actuallly did his whole life...
The dukkha which is abandoned is personal. Personal birth, ageing, sickness, death, sorrow etc. If he was, as you say, immediately free from all dukkha there would be no need to enter into meditation to escape from dukkha.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:07 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:04 am
Not only Gautama, but many people grew old, got ill with excessive pain and died. But the Buddha abandoned all that so that didn't happen to the Buddha.
Yet he complained of back pain and entered meditative states to escape said pain. He was therefore still experiencing old age and sickness, as well as pain.
It doesn't follow that the abandoning of all dukkha occurs at the end of life, With the break of the body, upon death, there's still dukkha, there are still wars, people ill, suffering and in despair. But all that is abandoned when the clinging to the aggregates is abandoned. He was free from pain indeed and I didn't new he entered meditation as a painkiller, but that's what I imagine he would have offered to anyone under excessive pain. out of compassion he would have offered a painkiller to anyone needing it desperately. And that's what he actuallly did his whole life...
The dukkha which is abandoned is personal. Personal birth, ageing, sickness, death, sorrow etc. If he was, as you say, immediately free from all dukkha there would be no need to enter into meditation to escape from dukkha.
Personal is your self view. I don't know whose dhamma is that of "after awakening embers still hurting until death" but it doesn't appear to be Buddhadhamma.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:07 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:04 am
Not only Gautama, but many people grew old, got ill with excessive pain and died. But the Buddha abandoned all that so that didn't happen to the Buddha.
Yet he complained of back pain and entered meditative states to escape said pain. He was therefore still experiencing old age and sickness, as well as pain.
It doesn't follow that the abandoning of all dukkha occurs at the end of life, With the break of the body, upon death, there's still dukkha, there are still wars, people ill, suffering and in despair. But all that is abandoned when the clinging to the aggregates is abandoned. He was free from pain indeed and I didn't new he entered meditation as a painkiller, but that's what I imagine he would have offered to anyone under excessive pain. out of compassion he would have offered a painkiller to anyone needing it desperately. And that's what he actuallly did his whole life...
The dukkha which is abandoned is personal. Personal birth, ageing, sickness, death, sorrow etc. If he was, as you say, immediately free from all dukkha there would be no need to enter into meditation to escape from dukkha.
Personal is your self view. I don't know whose dhamma is that of "after awakening embers still hurting until death" but it doesn't appear to be Buddhadhamma.
So far you have not shown anything to the contrary.
Personal is your self view.
My birth is not your birth. It is nothing to do with you. Awakening has nothing to do with ending wars.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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I am somewhat confused by this conversation. Is pain (which arahants apparently feel) dukkha or not?
MN140 wrote:If they [an arahant] feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedeti, visaṁyutto naṁ vedeti;
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/sujato#4.2
:heart:
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mikenz66 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:37 am I am somewhat confused by this conversation. Is pain (which arahants apparently feel) dukkha or not?
MN140 wrote:If they [an arahant] feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedeti, visaṁyutto naṁ vedeti;
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/sujato#4.2
:heart:
Mike
Its dukkha, as per the Pāli there. I take detachment here to mean no aversion.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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