Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:31 am

So far you have not shown anything to the contrary.
I claimed misunderstanding. You claimed understanding but you haven't proved it.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:31 am My birth is not your birth. It is nothing to do with you. Awakening has nothing to do with ending wars.
Exactly
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:48 am
I claimed misunderstanding. You claimed understanding but you haven't proved it.
What I have previously said accords well with the suttas. The problem for your interpretation is that you have the Buddha simultaneously free from dukkha yet also experiencing it.
Exactly
Then why bring up wars etc? They have nothing to do with awakening. Saying upon awakening there is still dukkha because there are wars seems a tad off to me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by mjaviem »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:37 am I am somewhat confused by this conversation. Is pain (which arahants apparently feel) dukkha or not?
MN140 wrote:If they [an arahant] feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedeti, visaṁyutto naṁ vedeti;
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/sujato#4.2
:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike.

If by pain you mean the unpleasant feeling that comes when rolling on a hospital bed due to a broken rib, yes that is dukkha. Arahants do experience it, of course, but they feel it detached, affliction doesn't arise in their mind. They don't crave for things to be different. They don't take that body to be theirs while still acting for the good of that body. The feeling is there but they see it correctly as unsatisfactory, impermanent and not self. They don't cling to it. They have abandoned the clinging to the aggregates subject to clinging.

If by pain you mean the suffering due to unsatisfactoriness of everything that is conditioned, I think someone knowladgeable in pali will say that that pain is dukkhadukkata. Unsatisfactoriness is inherent to everything that is conditioned and by clinging to anything will always lead to suffering because satisfaction can not be found anywhere.

What was been questioned here is the idea that, while having abandoned craving and clinging which are cause of all suffering, there is still suffering remaining.

This is wrong. Renunciation to craving leads to ending of all kind of suffering. When there's no suffering, seeing correctly a body that is in pain and aging is not painful. Seeing people in pain and despair, seeing people dying in wars, violence within families, while still acting for the good of that people, does not lead to suffering when seen correctly. All that is conditioned is inherently unsatisfactory, impermanent and can not be self. This is inherent to the conditioned and will always be like this. It won't go away upon the break of the body, after death. Death only brings more suffering. The true liberation comes immediately with true wisdom. When seeing correctly any painful feeling is not own, any perception of aging and change is not cause of suffering, seeing and experiencing pain is not painful for the wise. The wise is not a being, he doesn't take anything to be self thus cannot suffer and cannot die. When not taking anything as a self, they only act for the good of their body and mind as well as for the good of all living beings. Wisdom immediately ends the cycle of becoming in the present and nothing painful remains.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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