Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

[Ceisiwr]

...

You were talking about past craving and also about freedom at death and I truly would like to know a little more about all this.

Based on past craving and clinging, and so past kamma, there is this life. At the end of life, for the Arahant, all dukkha ceases. For others it does not.

I think I am misunderstanding. When is it that an Arahant renounces and lets go craving so al dukkha ceases and ends? What is the third noble truth about then?

The Arahant has abolished ignorance and so no longer craves or clings. These have been given up. At that moment the dukkha of fabrication ceases immediately, which is quite a lot. The condition for any future dukkha has also been given up and so their life from then on is that of a winding down, of embers slowly growing cold. However, dying embers still burn. The Arahant is then still "burnt" by the embers of past craving and clinging which were the condition for this life. They still experience the dukkha of pain, for example old age and sickness, and change. Only at the end of life does all dukkha cease without remainder.

The 3rd Noble Truth follows analytically from the 2nd. If craving is the condition for dukkha then its cessation is also the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbāna.

[mjaviem]

The Arahant has abolished ignorance and so no longer craves or clings. These have been given up. At that moment the dukkha of fabrication ceases immediately, which is quite a lot. The condition for any future dukkha has also been given up and so their life from then on is that of a winding down, of embers slowly growing cold. However, dying embers still burn. The Arahant is then still "burnt" by the embers of past craving and clinging which were the condition for this life. They still experience the dukkha of pain, for example old age and sickness, and change. Only at the end of life does all dukkha cease without remainder.

The 3rd Noble Truth follows analytically from the 2nd. If craving is the condition for dukkha then its cessation is also the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbāna.

So Arahants in pain (from an old age illness) are not just experiencing feeling but they're suffering for it because their past craving hasn't ceased,. That past craving will only cease at their death. Is something like this?

I really can't follow you. I need to stop misunderstanding all the noble truths first...

[Assaji]

Arhants thoughts are not rooted in greed delusion or hate... so can we say its impossible for them to generate pain mental feeling or any pain feeling generated by their thoughts?

Is it impossible for Arahants to put their hands in raging fire? Perhaps possible, but they just won't do it.

[mjaviem]

Arhants thoughts are not rooted in greed delusion or hate... so can we say its impossible for them to generate pain mental feeling or any pain feeling generated by their thoughts?

Is it impossible for Arahants to put their hands in raging fire? Perhaps possible, but they just won't do it.

Let me say my thoughts: They won't do that because they'll burn their hand and it will feel painful. If they happen to have for any reason their hand stucked in the fire they'll try to get it out of the flames but never suffering because of it, only acting for the good of their own body, feeling the pain but never craving for things to be different.

[mikenz66]

I think this sutta is relevant:

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a painful feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a neutral feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached. Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato

The arahant still experiences dukkha, but knows it will end... And that knowledge is profoundly liberating. (Note: that's me speculating, not an arahant speaking... .)

In my view, the interpretation that awakening is "immediate" as in "this instant", leads to a lot of interpretation problems.


Mike

[DooDoot]

Thought is mental contact

I’d be cautious of changing the Dhamma to suit your expectations. Thought is mental contact however any hateful cruel thought must be based on painful feelings. In the 2nd link of dependent origination, the suttas describe sankhara as comprised of three things: (i) breathing; (ii) thought; (iii) perception & feeling. Any arising of hateful thought, be it before contact or after contact, must include painful feelings within it. Please do not rebel against the Dhamma. Hate only arises due to painful feelings. For example, you are constantly corrected on this forum for your errors. This causes painful feelings. Then you start to hate the Teacher who corrects you. Then from this hate, your mind develops more painful feelings, such as sorrow, humiliation & despair. This is samsara; cycling in painful feelings, hateful defilements and more painful feelings due to taking refuge in SteRo and Nagarjuna, the fruit of which is bitter.

[mjaviem]

...

Thanks Mike. But what I understand from that quote is that what is going to cool down is whatever is felt, the feeling aggregate. I don't believe it means suffering since the cause of suffering is craving and attachment was already given up at enlightenment. If I'm wrong I trust I will understand correctly some day

[Bundokji]

I think arahants do not crave permanence. Craving permanence is rooted in ignorance and a major cause of stress. Many understand ending dukkha to be a permanent state where how one feels is of great importance and a major criteria. Any positive outcomes from the spiritual life in terms of knowledge and wisdom is therefore secondary.

[Ceisiwr]

The Arahant has abolished ignorance and so no longer craves or clings. These have been given up. At that moment the dukkha of fabrication ceases immediately, which is quite a lot. The condition for any future dukkha has also been given up and so their life from then on is that of a winding down, of embers slowly growing cold. However, dying embers still burn. The Arahant is then still "burnt" by the embers of past craving and clinging which were the condition for this life. They still experience the dukkha of pain, for example old age and sickness, and change. Only at the end of life does all dukkha cease without remainder.

The 3rd Noble Truth follows analytically from the 2nd. If craving is the condition for dukkha then its cessation is also the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbāna.

So Arahants in pain (from an old age illness) are not just experiencing feeling but they're suffering for it because their past craving hasn't ceased,. That past craving will only cease at their death. Is something like this?

I really can't follow you. I need to stop misunderstanding all the noble truths first...

No. That might be good Sarvāstivāda but I don't subscribe to their interpretation. The past craving has ceased. That craving was the condition for this life, which includes experiencing painful feelings and change. At the moment of death, for a worldly person, their craving and clinging will be the basis for establishing consciousness in a new existence. In that existence, say the animal realm, there will be the dukkha of formations, pain and change.

[Ceisiwr]

...

Thanks Mike. But what I understand from that quote is that what is going to cool down is whatever is felt, the feeling aggregate. I don't believe it means suffering since the cause of suffering is craving and attachment was already given up at enlightenment. If I'm wrong I trust I will understand correctly some day

Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha. Cessation is sukha.

[DooDoot]

Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha.

No.

Cessation is sukha.

Your idea of "cessation" obviously cannot be sukha since the absence of consciousness cannot be sukha because sukha as an experience.

[Ceisiwr]

Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha.

No.

Cessation is sukha.

Your idea of "cessation" obviously cannot be sukha since the absence of consciousness cannot be sukha because sukha as an experience.

"At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.

There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! Extinguishment is bliss!”

When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”

“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it."

AN 9.34

[mjaviem]

...

Thanks Mike. But what I understand from that quote is that what is going to cool down is whatever is felt, the feeling aggregate. I don't believe it means suffering since the cause of suffering is craving and attachment was already given up at enlightenment. If I'm wrong I trust I will understand correctly some day

Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha. Cessation is sukha.

I think I see your point more clearly now.

Ok, could you explain the difference between the five aggregates and the five clinging-aggregates (SN 22.48) and explain why the First Noble Truth is specifically about the clinging-aggregates (SN 56.11)?

[Ceisiwr]

Thanks Mike. But what I understand from that quote is that what is going to cool down is whatever is felt, the feeling aggregate. I don't believe it means suffering since the cause of suffering is craving and attachment was already given up at enlightenment. If I'm wrong I trust I will understand correctly some day

Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha. Cessation is sukha.

I think I see your point more clearly now.

Ok, could you explain the difference between the five aggregates and the five clinging-aggregates (SN 22.48) and explain why the First Noble Truth is specifically about the clinging-aggregates (SN 56.11)?

Both refer to the aggregates. The difference is in what they are subjected to. In terms of "clinging-aggregates" they are dukkha in short because in clinging to them there is the condition necessary for birth, ageing, sickness, death and so on. There is existence. The 2nd Noble Truth then sets out what leads to a renewal of existence. With craving as condition there is clinging to the aggregates, which is a condition in turn for birth, ageing, sickness and death etc.

“Those ascetics and brahmins, bhikkhu, who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’—they delight in volitional formations that lead to birth, in volitional formations that lead to aging, in volitional formations that lead to death, in volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Delighting in such volitional formations, they generate volitional formations that lead to birth, generate volitional formations that lead to aging, generate volitional formations that lead to death, generate volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Having generated such volitional formations, they tumble down the precipice of birth, tumble down the precipice of aging, tumble down the precipice of death, tumble down the precipice of sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. They are not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“But, bhikkhu, those ascetics and brahmins who understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’—they do not delight in volitional formations that lead to birth, nor in volitional formations that lead to aging, nor in volitional formations that lead to death, nor in volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Not delighting in such volitional formations, they do not generate volitional formations that lead to birth, nor generate volitional formations that lead to aging, nor generate volitional formations that lead to death, nor generate volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Not having generated such volitional formations, they do not tumble down the precipice of birth, nor tumble down the precipice of aging, nor tumble down the precipice of death, nor tumble down the precipice of sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. They are freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say."

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.42/en/bodhi

[Nicolas]

Your idea of "cessation" obviously cannot be sukha since the absence of consciousness cannot be sukha because sukha as an experience.

"At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.

There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! Extinguishment is bliss!”

When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”

“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it."

AN 9.34

Also:

Now, it’s possible, Ānanda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, ‘Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How is this?’ When they say that, they are to be told, ‘It’s not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.’