Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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DooDoot
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Nicolas wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:43 am Also:
Bahuvedanīya Sutta (MN 59) wrote: Now, it’s possible, Ānanda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, ‘Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How is this?’ When they say that, they are to be told, ‘It’s not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.’
nonsense. mere words in a book. otherwise, inaccurate translation
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:43 am Ok, could you explain the difference between the five aggregates and the five clinging-aggregates (SN 22.48) and explain why the First Noble Truth is specifically about the clinging-aggregates (SN 56.11)?
Both refer to the aggregates. The difference is in what they are subjected to. In terms of "clinging-aggregates" they are dukkha in short because in clinging to them there is the condition necessary for birth, ageing, sickness, death and so on. There is existence. The 2nd Noble Truth then sets out what leads to a renewal of existence. With craving as condition there is clinging to the aggregates, which is a condition in turn for birth, ageing, sickness and death etc.
The above did not appear to answer the question.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 am There is existence.
What is the Pali word for the "existence" above? Is this "physical materialistic" existence of a biological organism? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 03, 2021 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 am ...
Both refer to the aggregates. The difference is in what they are subjected to. In terms of "clinging-aggregates" they are dukkha in short because in clinging to them there is the condition necessary for birth, ageing, sickness, death and so on. There is existence. The 2nd Noble Truth then sets out what leads to a renewal of existence. With craving as condition there is clinging to the aggregates, which is a condition in turn for birth, ageing, sickness and death etc.
...
(Thank you for the time you are taking to reply). I think you are agreeing that the five clinging-aggregates are rooted in desire as explained in MN 109:
MN 109 Thanissaro wrote: ...
“Monk, these five clinging-aggregates are rooted in desire.”

Saying, “Very good, lord,” the monk… asked him a further question: “Is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, or is clinging separate from the five clinging-aggregates?”

“Monk, clinging is neither the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the five clinging-aggregates. Just that whatever passion & delight is there, that’s the clinging there.”
...
Would you say that with the cessation of desire there is no more clinging-aggregates? You seem to agree that there is a difference between five aggregates and the five clinging-aggregates, Do you think only the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha or do you think the five aggregates are also dukkha?
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:04 am Do you think [Ceisiwr] only the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha or do you think the five aggregates are also dukkha?
:popcorn:
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:04 am
(Thank you for the time you are taking to reply). I think you are agreeing that the five clinging-aggregates are rooted in desire as explained in MN 109
You’re welcome and indeed, yes.
Would you say that with the cessation of desire there is no more clinging-aggregates? You seem to agree that there is a difference between five aggregates and the five clinging-aggregates, Do you think only the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha or do you think the five aggregates are also dukkha
With the cessation of craving there is no more clinging to the aggregates, which means the condition for existence, birth and future aggregates is no more. Whilst not being clung to the aggregates are still dukkha due to the dukkha of change and pain.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 am You’re welcome and indeed, yes.
Are you saying the clinging-aggregates are aggregates created from desire, such as in solipsism? What exactly are you talking about with your verbose yet insubstantial utterances? :shrug:
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 amWith the cessation of craving there is no more clinging to the aggregates, which means the condition for existence, birth and future aggregates is no more.
So you are saying Arahants don't immediately end "birth" upon awakening but are only free from future physical birth? :shrug:
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 am Whilst not being clung to the aggregates are still dukkha due to the dukkha of change and pain.
What is your view of SN 22.1, which appears contrary to your ideas? :shrug:
He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

SN 22.1
Apart from copying & pasting words from the internet & getting a weird excited thrill from it, could you explain what the term "dukkha of change and pain" means & why this phenomena should be avoided or overcome? :shrug: :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 03, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 am
With the cessation of craving there is no more clinging to the aggregates, which means the condition for existence, birth and future aggregates is no more. Whilst not being clung to the aggregates are still dukkha due to the dukkha of change and pain.
Why do you say dukkha of change and pain is the same dukkha im the first noble truth?
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:27 am Why do you say dukkha of change and pain is the same dukkha in the first noble truth?
:goodpost: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:05 am
“Those ascetics and brahmins, bhikkhu, who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’—they delight in volitional formations that lead to birth, in volitional formations that lead to aging, in volitional formations that lead to death, in volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Delighting in such volitional formations, they generate volitional formations that lead to birth, generate volitional formations that lead to aging, generate volitional formations that lead to death, generate volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Having generated such volitional formations, they tumble down the precipice of birth, tumble down the precipice of aging, tumble down the precipice of death, tumble down the precipice of sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. They are not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“But, bhikkhu, those ascetics and brahmins who understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’—they do not delight in volitional formations that lead to birth, nor in volitional formations that lead to aging, nor in volitional formations that lead to death, nor in volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Not delighting in such volitional formations, they do not generate volitional formations that lead to birth, nor generate volitional formations that lead to aging, nor generate volitional formations that lead to death, nor generate volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Not having generated such volitional formations, they do not tumble down the precipice of birth, nor tumble down the precipice of aging, nor tumble down the precipice of death, nor tumble down the precipice of sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. They are freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say."
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.42/en/bodhi
Thanks for your copy & pasting. But in reference to the above:

1. It appears "birth" is a condition for sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair.

2. If the "birth" the Arahants end is future birth of future lives, does this mean the present sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair in the present life and even in the present moment does not end in the present life & in the present moment when enlightenment occurs? :shrug: How does cessation of birth of future lives cause cessation of our present sorrow, grief & despair? :shrug:

Please "pleasure" me with your "pleasurable" answer that is a "pleasure" for you. :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 03, 2021 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:43 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:20 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:36 pm
Thanks Mike. But what I understand from that quote is that what is going to cool down is whatever is felt, the feeling aggregate. I don't believe it means suffering since the cause of suffering is craving and attachment was already given up at enlightenment. If I'm wrong I trust I will understand correctly some day
Pain itself is dukkha. Pleasant and neutral feelings are also dukkha. Existence is dukkha. Life is dukkha. Cessation is sukha.
I think I see your point more clearly now.
Useful conversation then! Looking directly to what I quoted MN140:
If they [an arahant] feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedeti, visaṁyutto naṁ vedeti;
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 2:41 am Looking directly to what I quoted MN140:
If they [an arahant] feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
dukkhañce vedanaṁ vedeti, visaṁyutto naṁ vedeti;
So the Arahant is suffering with detachment? :shrug:
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:43 am why the First Noble Truth is specifically about the clinging-aggregates
The 'pañcupādānakkhandhā' sound directly puts the onus on you (or each listener). These dhammatas right here, right now.

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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Did the buddha saids physical painful sensation (or feeling) is dukkha per clinging of five aggregates ?
They experience one feeling:
So ekaṁ vedanaṁ vedayati—
physical, not mental.
kāyikaṁ, na cetasikaṁ.
Last edited by asahi on Mon May 03, 2021 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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:goodpost: by Mike & Ceisiwr


And,

sn36.6
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.6/en/sujato
    • If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.
    • They’re called an educated noble disciple who is detached from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress, I say.
    • This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person.
    • A wise and learned person isn’t affected
      by feelings of pleasure and pain.

      This is the great difference in skill
      between the wise and the ordinary.


May be the following from Vissudhimagga (Bhikkhu Nanamoli Translation) can also be applied here:
  • Though feeling is condition, still
    Without inherent tendency
    No craving can arise, and so
    From this the perfect saint is free.

And,
Regarding five clinging aggregates and arahants:
  • sn22.122
    “Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?”
    “An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things—when developed & pursued—lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here & now and to mindfulness & alertness.”
    https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_122.html


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Hi SDA:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:09 am Regarding five clinging aggregates and arahants:
sn22.122
...
Thank you for that. Very helpful!

Note that the Sutta Central and Bhikkhu Bodhi reference is SN22.123
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/sujato#4.2
That sutta certainly contradicts the suggestion that the aggregates description does not apply to arahants.

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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:22 am Hi SDA:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:09 am Regarding five clinging aggregates and arahants:
sn22.122
...
Thank you for that. Very helpful!

Note that the Sutta Central and Bhikkhu Bodhi reference is SN22.123
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/sujato#4.2
That sutta certainly contradicts the suggestion that the aggregates description does not apply to arahants.

:heart:
Mike




My pleasure, Mike. Yes, SN22.122 (Sīlavantasutta) & SN22.123 (Sutavantasutta) are quite identical suttas, differing only in ... umm ... I forgot :lol:

Both suttas are mentioned in A Discourse on the Sīlavanta Sutta by Mahasi Sayadaw on Ven. Pesala's website:
http://www.aimwell.org/silavanta.html
  • A Discourse on the Sīlavanta Sutta
    Part One
    Delivered on 10th March 1967
    My discourse today will be an exposition on the Sīlavanta Sutta, in the Khandhavagga of the Saṃyuttanikāya, which is complemented by the Sutavanta Sutta.⁴ In speaking of one, the other is also relevant.


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𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Do arhants thought generate painful feeling ?

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:46 am My pleasure, Mike. Yes, SN22.122 (Sīlavantasutta) & SN22.123 (Sutavantasutta) are quite identical suttas, differing only in ... umm ... I forgot :lol:
Hmm, yes, I didn't notice that they are both there...

Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:123 (11) Instructed
(This sutta is identical with the preceding one except that the opening question and reply are phrased in terms of “an instructed bhikkhu.”)
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Mike
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