What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by DNS »

Ajahn Chah was great. If he had been born in China or Japan, he probably would have been a famous Chan or Zen master. Luckily for Theravada, he was born in Thailand.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by bodom »

DNS wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:04 pm Ajahn Chah was great. If he had been born in China or Japan, he probably would have been a famous Chan or Zen master. Luckily for Theravada, he was born in Thailand.
Indeed!

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by DooDoot »

Rahula wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:13 pm
So the Buddha was not enlightened in India. In fact he was never enlightened, was never born and never died.
The Pali suttas say a Buddha is free from "birth" ("jati") & "death' ("marana") and a Buddha is not "a being" ("satta"; SN 22.85). SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 define "a being" as a "self-view". SN 12.2 defines "jati" & "marana" as "birth" & "death" of "beings". Since a Buddha is free from self-view, a Buddha is not an enlightened "being", does not "die"; is not "born". MN 140 explains clearly:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
Dhammapada also:
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.
The answer to your questions are not related to "Zen". The answers are found in the Pali teachings. :smile:
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by pegembara »

Rahula wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:13 pm
He says;
So the Buddha was not enlightened in India. In fact he was never enlightened, was never born and never died.
further;
I live nowhere, There is no place you can find me, I have no age ...
... to think you exist is already a problem...etc.
Can you please teach me this in very simple terms?
:anjali:
Ajahn Chah also said if your pick up a cup, it is already broken. That cup is a metaphor for a person -body and mind.
If you pick up or acquire(upadhi) that "cup", it is now yours to deal with for one day it will surely break.

The Awakened ones fully realise this and are no longer identified with the body/mind or the five aggregates.
If the cup wasn't yours, to begin with when it breaks it has nothing to do with the real "you". By convention there is an Ajahn Chah!
An Ajahn Chah who became enlightened, was the teacher of so many great Western bhikkhus, who got sick and eventually died - that is the conventional truth. As for the real Ajahn Chah, you cannot pin down. Imagine ... freedom from existence and hence death!
Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
"'One day Ajahn Chah held up a beautiful Chinese tea cup, “To me this cup is already broken. Because I know its fate, I can enjoy it fully here and now. And when it’s gone, it’s gone.'” When we understand the truth of uncertainty and relax, we become free."
~ version by Jack Kornfield (from The Wise Heart)
The real Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body.
Svakkhato bhagavata dhammo
Sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko
Opanayiko paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi

The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One.
Apparent in this very life, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise.
:anjali:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

bodom wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:45 pm That's called Emptiness sickness and is common in the Mahayana schools. Obviously this is not what Ajahn Chah was saying or teaching. His teaching is to see through the labels and conventions. Not to deny reality but to engage with it skillfully.

:anjali:
Now it makes sense to me, Thanks a lot.

May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

SarathW wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:58 pm There is a Sutta which Buddha telling some one “How can you find Thathagatha after his death, let alone you can’t find him when he is alive” or similar words.
Please let me know if you can recall the sutta, sounds very interesting.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:04 pm Ajahn Chah was great. If he had been born in China or Japan, he probably would have been a famous Chan or Zen master. Luckily for Theravada, he was born in Thailand.
Sound like Mahayana, Zen, Theravada all come to the same basic understanding at the end.
What is the reason for this deviation of understanding between different segments?
Is lack of understanding the reason?
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by pegembara »

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:13 pm The Pali suttas say a Buddha is free from "birth" ("jati") & "death' ("marana") and a Buddha is not "a being" ("satta"; SN 22.85). SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 define "a being" as a "self-view". SN 12.2 defines "jati" & "marana" as "birth" & "death" of "beings". Since a Buddha is free from self-view, a Buddha is not an enlightened "being", does not "die"; is not "born". MN 140 explains clearly:
Thanks for providing all references, it is of great value to me.
I will take time to go through all and learn.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

pegembara wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:54 am The real Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body.
Thank you for providing me with insight!
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:13 pm The Pali suttas say a Buddha is free from "birth" ("jati") & "death' ("marana") and a Buddha is not "a being" ("satta"; SN 22.85).
SN 22.85 Yamaka Sutta
"What do you think, my friend Yamaka: Is form constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, my friend."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, my friend."
"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, my friend."
The form is inconstant, stressful & subject to change. It is not proper to regard form as 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?".
And there is no use clinging to self as 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

I can understand this.
What I can't understand is as follows.

Even-though we don't regard form as 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am',
the tangible form is still there in the reality.

But in this sutta, form is implied as 'a projection of the mind'.
As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."
If the physical body is there in the reality, if all are not a projection on the mind, what's wrong in above statement? What's wrong regarding as 'does not exist after death'?

Arhaths also has a physical body until they die, even-though they don't get attached to the body, isn't that the truth?
If Arhaths has a physical body, their mind live in the body, isn't it?
So what's wrong regarding it as 'on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?

If regarding like above is wrong, then it is similar to regarding the body as not real, not physically exist, isn't it?

Please help me understand this 'No Self' puzzle.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by DooDoot »

Rahula wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:56 am
As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."
If the physical body is there in the reality, if all are not a projection on the mind, what's wrong in above statement? What's wrong regarding as 'does not exist after death'?
The wrong view above is not about the physical body. The wrong view above is the view the Tathagata or an Arahant is an "existent being" or "self" that is "annihilated". The word "annihilated" always means "an existent being" or "self" that is "annihilated". Refer to DN 1 (below).

Kind regards :)
DN 1 wrote:4. Annihilationism (Ucchedavāda): Views 51–57

84. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction and extermination of an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views.

85. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction and extermination of an existent being.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

I found the most interesting explanation for all this "There is no self" nonsense.

“There is no self” is the granddaddy of fake Buddhist quotes. It has survived so long because of its superficial resemblance to the teaching on anatta, or not-self, which was one of the Buddha’s tools for putting an end to clinging. Even though he neither affirmed nor denied the existence of a self, he did talk of the process by which the mind creates many senses of self—what he called “I-making” and “my-making”—as it pursues its desires.
So how did we get the idea that the Buddha said that there is no self? The main culprit seems to be the debate culture of ancient India.
The Buddha warned his followers not to enter into these debates (Sutta Nipata 4.8)
Later generations of monks forgot the warning and soon found themselves in debates where they had to devise a Buddhist answer to the question of whether there is or isn’t a self.
The belief that there is no self can actually get in the way of awakening.
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Ontheway »

Saw this quote from Suttacentral
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... r/21870/85

The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah (192):
Eventually the breath disappears all together and all that remains is that feeling of alertness. This is called meeting the Buddha. We have that clear, wakeful awareness called Bud-dho, the one who knows, the awakened one, the radiant one.

This is meeting and dwelling with the Buddha, with knowledge and clarity. It was only the historical Buddha who passed away. The true Buddha, the Buddha that is clear, radiant knowing, can still be experienced and attained today.
Just like Vajrayana taught that there is a Primordial Buddha.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi-Buddha

Similarly, I think this could be Thai forest tradition of "Primordial Buddha". By practising Bud-dho, we will have a clear awareness called 'Bud-dho' awareness. :reading:

Btw, there is also an esoteric meditation in Myanmar called "I am the Buddha; the Buddha is me" method (could they be related?).
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44505299
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: What Ven.Ajahn Chah meant by "The Timeless Buddha"

Post by Rahula »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:05 am Saw this quote from Suttacentral
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... r/21870/85

The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah (192):
Eventually the breath disappears all together and all that remains is that feeling of alertness. This is called meeting the Buddha. We have that clear, wakeful awareness called Bud-dho, the one who knows, the awakened one, the radiant one.

This is meeting and dwelling with the Buddha, with knowledge and clarity. It was only the historical Buddha who passed away. The true Buddha, the Buddha that is clear, radiant knowing, can still be experienced and attained today.
Just like Vajrayana taught that there is a Primordial Buddha.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi-Buddha

Similarly, I think this could be Thai forest tradition of "Primordial Buddha". By practising Bud-dho, we will have a clear awareness called 'Bud-dho' awareness. :reading:

Btw, there is also an esoteric meditation in Myanmar called "I am the Buddha; the Buddha is me" method (could they be related?).
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44505299
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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