Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
alexYaYy
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Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by alexYaYy »

Brahmas are supposed to be deluded by Mara and his evil. But yet, they have met the Buddha many times such as Baka Brahma and Brahmas in Maha Samaya Sutta. Is there an answer to this? Also, who is Mara? His evil has made the Buddha evade becoming enlightened many times and somehow he's still in that plane of existence (he hasn't fallen)? Why don't higher levels of heavens and Brahma levels seek Buddhism and the truth. Why are they stuck in lower levels of existence when they could've practiced and reached enlightenment in Buddha's time?
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DooDoot
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by DooDoot »

Brahmas cannot give up delight in oneness with phenomena and self-view. Refer to Brahma-Nimantanika Sutta (MN 49).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Nicolas
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Nicolas »

‘The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.’
Some humans are Buddhists, some are not. Some devas are Buddhists, some are not.
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DooDoot
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by DooDoot »

Nicolas wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:01 am Some humans are Buddhists, some are not. Some devas are Buddhists, some are not.
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident. AN 6.39
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Alino
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Alino »

Good video on Mara :


I suppose Mara to be some kind of Marketing Director of this game called Samsara. He is not a bad guy but his job is to keep costumers play his game by encourage them to create kammic dept etc.

Or some kind of mother that keep his childrens in golden cage and if they want to go out she gives them all toys they ever wanted or tell them scary stories about how dangerous is the world outside the cage... And she really believe in it, she's motivation is good - protect she's kids, but she create a beautiful prison with she's love.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
D1W1
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by D1W1 »

According to Buddhism, Brahma is still in samsara therefore the conclusion is yes under the influence of something. Not free yet from the wheel of life.
form
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by form »

Alino wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:22 am Good video on Mara :


I suppose Mara to be some kind of Marketing Director of this game called Samsara. He is not a bad guy but his job is to keep costumers play his game by encourage them to create kammic dept etc.

Or some kind of mother that keep his childrens in golden cage and if they want to go out she gives them all toys they ever wanted or tell them scary stories about how dangerous is the world outside the cage... And she really believe in it, she's motivation is good - protect she's kids, but she create a beautiful prison with she's love.
He is a marketing director?
form
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by form »

Marketing director of the desire realm?
D1W1
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by D1W1 »

D1W1 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:26 am According to Buddhism, Brahma is still in samsara therefore the conclusion is yes under the influence of something. Not free yet from the wheel of life.
I would also like to add that there is a story if I remember it correctly Buddha talked about a Brahma who took rebirth in the animal realm.
Alino
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Alino »

form wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:10 am Marketing director of the desire realm?
I don't know for sure, but his job of a Tempter is petty close to Marketing Dorectorship... Make people self-identify with the character and buy things with cash (kamma dept).
Also kamma law seems to be very close to algorithms of youtube facebook etc. : it suggests you things that you used to buy in the past. But if we don't buy it, and don't skip the add, we become bad costumer, and when these khandhas die and we are not identify with them anymore, we can be at peace with it and don't follow them further...

It's all a imho metaphor
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
form
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by form »

Alino wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:24 am
form wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:10 am Marketing director of the desire realm?
I don't know for sure, but his job of a Tempter is petty close to Marketing Dorectorship... Make people self-identify with the character and buy things with cash (kamma dept).
Also kamma law seems to be very close to algorithms of youtube facebook etc. : it suggests you things that you used to buy in the past. But if we don't buy it, and don't skip the add, we become bad costumer, and when these khandhas die and we are not identify with them anymore, we can be at peace with it and don't follow them further...

It's all a imho metaphor
U r not wrong. He is the in charge for that. Big job he will hands on himself.
Bundokji
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Bundokji »

What do you mean by deluded? One can approach "beings" as deluded, or by having their own nature. For example, you can think of snakes as being deluded into biting other beings and poisoning them, or you can see it as the nature of snakes.

Before jumping into Brahmas and describing them as deluded, one can look at human nature and try to understand it. One of the main features of being a human seems to be a high degree of reliance on technology or technique. We define the discovery of fire and the invention of agriculture as turning points in our history. It changed our relationship with the elements. Even meditation is taught through a technique nowadays. We are obsessed with constructions (both mental and physical) and the Buddha's teaching goes against the grain of that. The issue of seeing constructions as bad seems to be a recurring theme in human thought. The gods (or Brahmas) of Abrahamic religions portray humans as having been in a state of harmony with nature (or with god) before being separated from it through self knowledge, and the aim of spiritual life is to return to this state of harmony. In dhammic religions, asceticism and monasticism is another attempt to go back to the state of harmony with nature. Even modern activism, be it feminism or environmentalism, oozes with this religious impulse under the disguise of secularism and modern science.

This brings us to how systems function, which is through resistance against what opposes them. A system creates its own biases which becomes integral to its functionality. This act of resisting (or negating) is often used and demonized by humans. The term "demon" is often translated as "evil", but a better translation would be "genius". Genius is a strange mix of good and evil. It creates truths through the notion of "noble lies". Noble lies are another recurring theme in the human psyche and it has explanatory power regarding the relationship between rulers and the ruled, and is a common notion amongst secret societies as well as esoteric religions and philosophies.

The liar paradox can shed light on human truths, including our notions of Mara and what constitutes delusion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
alexYaYy
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by alexYaYy »

Bundokji wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:07 am What do you mean by deluded? One can approach "beings" as deluded, or by having their own nature. For example, you can think of snakes as being deluded into biting other beings and poisoning them, or you can see it as the nature of snakes.

Before jumping into Brahmas and describing them as deluded, one can look at human nature and try to understand it. One of the main features of being a human seems to be a high degree of reliance on technology or technique. We define the discovery of fire and the invention of agriculture as turning points in our history. It changed our relationship with the elements. Even meditation is taught through a technique nowadays. We are obsessed with constructions (both mental and physical) and the Buddha's teaching goes against the grain of that. The issue of seeing constructions as bad seems to be a recurring theme in human thought. The gods (or Brahmas) of Abrahamic religions portray humans as having been in a state of harmony with nature (or with god) before being separated from it through self knowledge, and the aim of spiritual life is to return to this state of harmony. In dhammic religions, asceticism and monasticism is another attempt to go back to the state of harmony with nature. Even modern activism, be it feminism or environmentalism, oozes with this religious impulse under the disguise of secularism and modern science.

This brings us to how systems function, which is through resistance against what opposes them. A system creates its own biases which becomes integral to its functionality. This act of resisting (or negating) is often used and demonized by humans. The term "demon" is often translated as "evil", but a better translation would be "genius". Genius is a strange mix of good and evil. It creates truths through the notion of "noble lies". Noble lies are another recurring theme in the human psyche and it has explanatory power regarding the relationship between rulers and the ruled, and is a common notion amongst secret societies as well as esoteric religions and philosophies.

The liar paradox can shed light on human truths, including our notions of Mara and what constitutes delusion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox
I used that word because it seems that the scriptures try to say that all of Mara has control the court of Brahmas (from my perspective; please correct me if my interpretation's wrong) in this part of the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta it states:

"When this was said, I told Mara the Evil One, 'I know you, Evil One. Don't assume, "He doesn't know me." You are Mara, Evil One. And Brahma, and Brahma's assembly, and the attendants of Brahma's assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power. And you think, "This one, too, has come into my hands, has come under my control." But, Evil One, I have neither come into your hands nor have I come under your control.'' (from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)
Bundokji
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Bundokji »

alexYaYy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:50 pm I used that word because it seems that the scriptures try to say that all of Mara has control the court of Brahmas (from my perspective; please correct me if my interpretation's wrong) in this part of the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta it states:

"When this was said, I told Mara the Evil One, 'I know you, Evil One. Don't assume, "He doesn't know me." You are Mara, Evil One. And Brahma, and Brahma's assembly, and the attendants of Brahma's assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power. And you think, "This one, too, has come into my hands, has come under my control." But, Evil One, I have neither come into your hands nor have I come under your control.'' (from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)
My comment was in relation to your opening statement "Brahmas are supposed to be deluded by Mara and his evil." The way i understand it is that practitioners who attain the first Jhana can mistake it to be enlightenment.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
alexYaYy
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by alexYaYy »

Bundokji wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:52 pm
alexYaYy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:50 pm I used that word because it seems that the scriptures try to say that all of Mara has control the court of Brahmas (from my perspective; please correct me if my interpretation's wrong) in this part of the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta it states:

"When this was said, I told Mara the Evil One, 'I know you, Evil One. Don't assume, "He doesn't know me." You are Mara, Evil One. And Brahma, and Brahma's assembly, and the attendants of Brahma's assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power. And you think, "This one, too, has come into my hands, has come under my control." But, Evil One, I have neither come into your hands nor have I come under your control.'' (from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)
My comment was in relation to your opening statement "Brahmas are supposed to be deluded by Mara and his evil." The way i understand it is that practitioners who attain the first Jhana can mistake it to be enlightenment.
What does your understanding have to do with the text from the Sutta (help elaborate)? Just genuinely trying to understand because I see it as the literal Mara (the Brahma) has influence over the court of Brahma and its attendants.
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