Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:24 pmtoo subtle for simple religious persons
This is why I don't take secular Buddhists seriously, aside from their materialism (or, sorry, their skepticism over non-materialism!), they can't see their own prelest and vainglory. This in my experience is so systematically true of Western Atheists, "Skeptics," that I do believe it is a symptom of the ideology. Sure, religious persons are "too simple" and the Dharma is "too subtle" for them. If you can't see what you're doing, I really can't teach you how to critically self-reflect.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri May 14, 2021 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:31 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:24 pmtoo subtle for simple religious persons
This is why I don't take secular Buddhists seriously, aside from their materialism, or sorry, their skepticism over non-materialism, they can't see their own prelest and vainglory. Sure, religious persons are "too simple" and the Dharma is "too subtle" for them. If you can't see what your doing, I really can't teach you how to critically self-reflect.
What’s more worrying is that he/she has an MA in religious studies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:25 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:19 pm No, I think you are a run-of-the-mill Western Atheist in Buddhist clothing. I am a Buddhist. You merely metaphorically wear Buddhist clothing. Your heart is with materialism it seems, deep down.
I am not materialist, I am a sceptic. And the Buddha was a sceptic, of course. The Buddhist view is no-view. That's why he hesitated to teach, because his "view" is too subtle for simple religious persons as well as for most of deep thinkers.
Wrong. The Buddha taught understanding and knowledge. Try again.
How is scepticism opposed to "knowledge" and "understanding". "Scepticism" means "learning", "inquiring", and is about the direct knowledge!
The Greek word skepsis means investigation. By calling themselves skeptics, the ancient skeptics thus describe themselves as investigators. They also call themselves ‘those who suspend’ (ephektikoi), thereby signaling that their investigations lead them to suspension of judgment. They do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skep ... 20judgment.
How good and wonderful are your days,
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Bundokji
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Bundokji »

alexYaYy wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:40 pm I still want to know where the first jhana one came from though :toast:
In note number 4 of the sutta, it is mentioned that:
The Abhassara Brahma-body is attained through mastering and relishing the second jhana. The next two Brahma-bodies are attained through mastering and relishing the third and fourth.
Of which the context is:
'That, brahma, is how I discern your sphere, that is how I discern your splendor: "Baka Brahma has this much great power. Baka Brahma has this much great might. Baka Brahma has this much great influence." There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don't know, don't see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here
In the 31 planes of existence, planes number 12, 13 and 14 explain Brahmas who experience first Jhana:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:31 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:24 pmtoo subtle for simple religious persons
This is why I don't take secular Buddhists seriously, aside from their materialism (or, sorry, their skepticism over non-materialism!) they can't see their own prelest and vainglory. Sure, religious persons are "too simple" and the Dharma is "too subtle" for them. If you can't see what your doing, I really can't teach you how to critically self-reflect.
The more I reflect the more it seems apparent that secular Buddhism is rooted in aversion. Many are secular humanists who seem to be slightly embarrassed to find themselves agreeing with a religion, finally.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:32 pmWhat’s more worrying is that he/she has an MA in religious studies.
I can't imagine studying history, religious history or not, and constantly thinking "What simple people. I/We are so unsimple compared to these simple people. Moderns are different." It's just such a foreign headspace. Or studying religious people around yourself in field studies and thinking "What simple people. I am not simple. We are very different." Why? Because of irreligion, likely. But maybe Sphairos can contextualize from his degree why and how religious people are "simple" or ancient people are "simpler" because they are ancient.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:25 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:24 pm

I am not materialist, I am a sceptic. And the Buddha was a sceptic, of course. The Buddhist view is no-view. That's why he hesitated to teach, because his "view" is too subtle for simple religious persons as well as for most of deep thinkers.
Wrong. The Buddha taught understanding and knowledge. Try again.
How is scepticism opposed to "knowledge" and "understanding". "Scepticism" means "learning", "inquiring", and is about the direct knowledge!
The Greek word skepsis means investigation. By calling themselves skeptics, the ancient skeptics thus describe themselves as investigators. They also call themselves ‘those who suspend’ (ephektikoi), thereby signaling that their investigations lead them to suspension of judgment. They do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skep ... 20judgment.
Scepticism, by which I mean philosophical scepticism and not the methodological scepticism of the scientific method, is doubt in the very possibility of knowledge being possible. Scepticism is doubt, not knowledge. Academic Scepticism claimed “nothing can be known, not even this”. The Pyrrhonists, such as Sextus Empiricus, demonstrated that this too was a truth claim and so sought to make scepticism absolute. In doing so there would be peace of mind, or “ataraxia”. To this end Sextus wrote “Outlines of Scepticism”, as well as “Against the Mathematicians” and others. The aim of ancient scepticism, and I include Ajñana here, was to dissolve all truth claims in favour of perpetual doubt which would ease the mind, or so that was the claim. The only thing they would allow would be “I am now experiencing X”. This is course underpinned much of the extreme hedonism of the Cyrenaics.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by sphairos »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:32 pmWhat’s more worrying is that he/she has an MA in religious studies.
I can't imagine studying history, religious history or not, and constantly thinking "What simple people. I/We are so unsimple compared to these simple people. Moderns are different." It's just such a foreign headspace.
You, as usual, are misrepresenting and twisting the words of your opponents.

Simple people are the ones who believe in gods and all other superficial supernatural woowoo, but it has nothing to do with Buddhism. Read the Pāli texts, they are not about gods, but massively about transformation from an imperfect being into a perfect being, and various practices on how to do / reach that. Nothing about believing in gods, asking them for help or worshipping them. And these text were written by and for the people who wanted that transformation, and couldn't care less about gods etc, not by / for simple people (like you :) )
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:25 pm

Wrong. The Buddha taught understanding and knowledge. Try again.
How is scepticism opposed to "knowledge" and "understanding". "Scepticism" means "learning", "inquiring", and is about the direct knowledge!
The Greek word skepsis means investigation. By calling themselves skeptics, the ancient skeptics thus describe themselves as investigators. They also call themselves ‘those who suspend’ (ephektikoi), thereby signaling that their investigations lead them to suspension of judgment. They do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skep ... 20judgment.
Scepticism, by which I mean ...
But who cares what you mean? Just read: "they do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry."
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 pmRead the Pāli texts
I am not twisting your words or your viewpoint as far as I see things. If I have, feel free to clarify how none of the disciples of the Buddha and no serious ancient Buddhist practitioners believed in the gods at the time of the Buddha and that he didn't lie when he spoke of them. Or clarify what cabal of monks altered the Buddhavacana to have the Buddha talking at length about "silly" things like the gods? You have a haughty incoherent position and I feel I have outlined it accurately. I do read the Pāli texts. That is how I know that you are all smoke and mirrors here.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:40 pm
sphairos wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:32 pm

How is scepticism opposed to "knowledge" and "understanding". "Scepticism" means "learning", "inquiring", and is about the direct knowledge!



https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skep ... 20judgment.
Scepticism, by which I mean ...
But who cares what you mean? Just read: "they do not put forward theories, and they do not deny that knowledge can be found. At its core, ancient skepticism is a way of life devoted to inquiry."
Apparently unlike you I have read. I used to be a Pyrrhonist, for a time. I’ve read all of Sextus’ works and what we know of Academic Scepticism. It wasn’t sustainable. It didn’t lead to peace of mind and it wasn’t what the Buddha taught. The Academics and Sextus would have rejected dependent origination outright. Pyrrho himself was so much of a sceptic he almost killed himself, as he doubted he senses so much. A consistent ancient sceptic should have no issue in drinking arsenic if I offered it to them.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri May 14, 2021 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

I think it’s worth pointing out that there were sceptic traditions back then. Ven. Sāriputta & Ven. Moggallāna both belonged to that tradition first, before finding it dissatisfactory and abandoning it in favour of the Dhamma.

You can’t abandon dukkha with doubt and equanimity. You need knowledge and the abandoning of all feelings for that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't think Sphairos is an "ancient skeptic." Ancient is "simple," at least with regards to religion. I think he's a "skeptic" like Penn and Teller are "skeptics." Am I wrong?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Ceisiwr »

A further interesting point. Saying that the Buddha was only concerned with “direct knowledge” doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in rebirth or the gods. If he directly experienced those beings then under such an epistemological view he directly knew they existed. The only way around it would be if the Buddha doubted the external world and other minds, which would make his claims of mind-reading quite odd. Is there any evidence that the Buddha was a solipsist?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Are Brahmas still deluded by Mara? + more questions

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:53 pm Pyrrho himself was so much of a sceptic he almost killed himself, as he doubted he senses so much. A consistent ancient sceptic should have no issue in drinking arsenic if I offered it to them.
If i remember correctly, his disciples/friends ran to save him, which makes one wonder if that does not prove his point:
Diogenes (9.62) reports Antigonus as saying that Pyrrho’s lack of trust in his senses led him to ignore precipices, oncoming wagons and dangerous dogs, and that his friends had to follow him around to protect him from these various everyday hazards.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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