Dhammapada verse 267

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form
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Dhammapada verse 267

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What does it mean by transcending both merit and demerit?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by Dhammanando »

It means that the acts of an arahant create neither kusala nor akusala kamma.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by DooDoot »

Dhp 267 wrote:But one living a spiritual life,
Yodha puññañca pāpañca,

who has shunned both merit and evil,
bāhetvā brahmacariyavā;

who after appraisal lives in this world,
Saṅkhāya loke carati,

is said to be a mendicant.
sa ve “bhikkhū”ti vuccati.

Sujato translation
bāhetvā
absolutive
having kept away; having warded off; having removed
pāpa
neuter
crime; evil action
puñña
neuter
merit; righteousness
About "merit" ("puñña"), MN 117 says:
is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds and ripens in attachment

sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato
Therefore, "merit" appears to refer to goodness performed with self-view.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by pegembara »

form wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 am What does it mean by transcending both merit and demerit?
The merit and demerit are for whom?
The words already presume that there is someone who receives a report card.

In the ultimate sense, there is no who. The arahant performs good deeds but there isn't anyone who gets the "reward". They simply cannot perform any "selfish" actions. For the very same reason, kamma-vipaka doesn't apply to them - only to the body-mind that we "assumed" to belong to the arahant.
"Lord, who clings?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'clings.' If I were to say 'clings,' then 'Who clings?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes clinging?' And the valid answer is, 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
form
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by form »

They have no volition?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by confusedlayman »

pegembara wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:41 am
form wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 am What does it mean by transcending both merit and demerit?
The merit and demerit are for whom?
The words already presume that there is someone who receives a report card.

In the ultimate sense, there is no who. The arahant performs good deeds but there isn't anyone who gets the "reward". They simply cannot perform any "selfish" actions. For the very same reason, kamma-vipaka doesn't apply to them - only to the body-mind that we "assumed" to belong to the arahant.
"Lord, who clings?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'clings.' If I were to say 'clings,' then 'Who clings?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes clinging?' And the valid answer is, 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
arhants thought is not based on greed hatred or delusion so the thought produced formational feeling etc not clinging so no new identification with new 5 aggregates
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
pegembara
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by pegembara »

Of course, there are volitions. The volition to turn on the air conditioner is due to heat. The volition doesn't arise without condition. The reply to your question was because of your previous question. The volition for food and water is because of hunger and thirst.

All due to causes and conditions. All impersonal.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by SarathW »

It does not mean that Arahants do not do wholesome acts. They still do wholesome actions but not with the expectation of merits.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by form »

pegembara wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:33 am Of course, there are volitions. The volition to turn on the air conditioner is due to heat. The volition doesn't arise without condition. The reply to your question was because of your previous question. The volition for food and water is because of hunger and thirst.

All due to causes and conditions. All impersonal.
I think our differences is just the way the words are used. In the sutta in AN, there is this saying. When one is virtuous there is no volition.
BVira
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by BVira »

the arahat […] has reached cessation of action, since for him the question 'What should I do?' no more arises. To the extent that there is still intention in the case of the arahat […] there is still conscious action, but since it is neither unskilful nor skilful it is no longer action in the ethical sense. Extinction, nibbāna, is cessation of ethics—Kullūpamam vo bhikkhave ājānantehi dhammā pi vo pahātabbā pageva adhammā ('Comprehending the parable of the raft, monks, you have to eliminate ethical things too, let alone unethical things') (Majjhima iii,2 <M.i,135>
- Nanavira Thera (excerpt from kamma in his Shorter Notes)
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

form wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 am What does it mean by transcending both merit and demerit?
As 183 puts it:
183. To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one’s mind—this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
At some point, when the mind is purified enough, there is no thought or motivation to avoid demerit or cultivate merit. Thus one lives naturally free from avoidance or cultivation.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
form
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Re: Dhammapada verse 267

Post by form »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:53 pm
form wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:47 am What does it mean by transcending both merit and demerit?
As 183 puts it:
183. To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one’s mind—this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
At some point, when the mind is purified enough, there is no thought or motivation to avoid demerit or cultivate merit. Thus one lives naturally free from avoidance or cultivation.
Good explanation
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