suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

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frank k
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suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

Post by frank k »

suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (w.r.t. suttas)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

It's worth pointing out not everyone who thinks kāya can have different meanings other than "physical body" are all Abhidhamma followers and apologists.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:28 pm It's worth pointing out not everyone who thinks kāya can have different meanings other than "physical body" are all Abhidhamma followers and apologists.
:goodpost: kāya can have different meanings other than "physical body" is incontrovertibly literally found in the suttas
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by BrokenBones »

Dn 2 is one of my favourite suttas. It seems incontrovertible that the body (physical) is meant...

"In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

(The Four Jhanas)
"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


The Buddha is obviously talking about the physical body in the first paragraph (there is no possibly reason to think otherwise)... we then have to believe that the Buddha switched 'kaya's' meaning to 'body of mind' in the following section. No warning and no simile that indicates that this is happening.

The meditator is entering jhana at the end of the first paragraph (with his tranquil body (physical))

It amazes me that obviously intelligent people could think the Buddha so obtuse and misleading to think he means anything other than body (physical).
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:38 pm ...
When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:38 pm ...
When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
This does not address my posting at all.

Where in the sutta I quoted is any of this suggested?

Body fading? Sense of 'you' fading? Access concentration?

If you want to ignore the sutta that's fine but you can't rewrite it to suit your view.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:14 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:38 pm ...
When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
This does not address my posting at all.

Where in the sutta I quoted is any of this suggested?

Body fading? Sense of 'you' fading? Access concentration?

If you want to ignore the sutta that's fine but you can't rewrite it to suit your view.
Here:

“Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.”

Interestingly, if I recall correctly, in the Upanishads Atman can also mean “body”. Perhaps a memory of this was retained in the suttas via the “mind made body”? Point being, “body” had a diverse range of meaning back then. This is also true today.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

In these documents, the term most frequently used with reference to a living, breathing body is atman, a term liable to misunderstanding and mistranslating because it can also mean the spiritual self or the inmost core of a human being, besides functioning as a mere reflexive pronoun.
The Early Upanishads: Annotated Text and Translation - Patrick Olivelle, pg. 22.
Verse 1.1.1

उषा वा अश्वस्य मेध्यस्य शिरः । सूर्यश्चक्षुः, वातः प्राणः, व्यात्तमग्निर्वैश्वानरः, संवत्सर आत्माश्वस्य मेध्यस्य । द्यौः पृष्ठम्, अन्तरिक्षमुदरम्, पृथिवी पाजस्यम्, दिशः पार्श्वे, अवान्तरदिशः पर्शवः, ऋतवोऽङ्गानि, मासाश्चार्धमासाश्च पर्वाणि, अहोरात्राणि प्रतिष्ठाः, नक्षत्राण्यस्थीनि, नभो मांसानि । ऊवध्यं सिकताः, सिन्धवो गुदाः, यकृच्च क्लोमानश्च पर्वताः, ओषधयश्च वनस्पतयश्च लोमानि, उद्यन् पूर्वार्धाः निम्लोचञ्जघनार्धः, यद्विजृम्भते तद्विद्योतते, यद्विधूनुते तत्स्तनयति, यन्मेहति तद्वर्षति, वागेवास्य वाक् ॥ १ ॥

uṣā vā aśvasya medhyasya śiraḥ | sūryaścakṣuḥ, vātaḥ prāṇaḥ, vyāttamagnirvaiśvānaraḥ, saṃvatsara ātmāśvasya medhyasya | dyauḥ pṛṣṭham, antarikṣamudaram, pṛthivī pājasyam, diśaḥ pārśve, avāntaradiśaḥ parśavaḥ, ṛtavo'ṅgāni, māsāścārdhamāsāśca parvāṇi, ahorātrāṇi pratiṣṭhāḥ, nakṣatrāṇyasthīni, nabho māṃsāni | ūvadhyaṃ sikatāḥ, sindhavo gudāḥ, yakṛcca klomānaśca parvatāḥ, oṣadhayaśca vanaspatayaśca lomāni, udyan pūrvārdhȧḥ nimlocañjaghanārdhaḥ, yadvijṛmbhate tadvidyotate, yadvidhūnute tatstanayati, yanmehati tadvarṣati, vāgevāsya vāk || 1 ||

l. Om. The head of the sacrificial horse is the dawn, its eye the sun, its vital force[7] the air, its open mouth the fire called Vaiśvānara, and the body of the sacrificial horse is the year. Its back is heaven, its belly the sky, its hoof the earth, its sides the four quarters, its ribs the intermediate quarters, its members the seasons, its joints the months and fortnights, its feet the days and nights, its bones the stars and its flesh the clouds. Its half-digested food is the sand, its blood-vessels the rivers, its liver and spleen the mountains, its hairs the herbs and trees. Its forepart is the ascending sun, its hind part the descending sun, its yawning is lightning, its shaking the body is thundering, its making water is raining, and its neighing is voice.
Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:38 pm ...
When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
By “still”, do you mean “tranquil” (as in calm, pleasant, malleable)?

Or by “still” do you mean that thoughts have all but disappeared?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:38 pm ...
When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
By “still”, do you mean “tranquil” (as in calm, pleasant, malleable)?

Or by “still” do you mean that thoughts have all but disappeared?
Still as in the subsiding of thoughts and disturbance from the 5 senses.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:08 am
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm

When someone is approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
By “still”, do you mean “tranquil” (as in calm, pleasant, malleable)?

Or by “still” do you mean that thoughts have all but disappeared?
Still as in the subsiding of thoughts and disturbance from the 5 senses.
Pleasure (sukha) is a prerequisite for samadhi.

How does the absence of thought and sense impressions bring about this necessary sukha?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:15 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:08 am
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:02 am

By “still”, do you mean “tranquil” (as in calm, pleasant, malleable)?

Or by “still” do you mean that thoughts have all but disappeared?
Still as in the subsiding of thoughts and disturbance from the 5 senses.
Pleasure (sukha) is a prerequisite for samadhi.

How does the absence of thought and sense impressions bring about this necessary sukha?
As the meditation deepens some rapture will arise along with a sense of letting go and deepening concentration, as well as increasing stillness and the subsiding of thoughts. The rapture and pleasure of Jhāna is more intense as it is born from seclusion. Prior to this, upon the first flashes of the rūpa (nimitta) it begins to intensify along with the stillness.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:25 am
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:15 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:08 am

Still as in the subsiding of thoughts and disturbance from the 5 senses.
Pleasure (sukha) is a prerequisite for samadhi.

How does the absence of thought and sense impressions bring about this necessary sukha?
As the meditation deepens some rapture will arise along with a sense of letting go and deepening concentration, as well as increasing stillness and the subsiding of thoughts. The rapture and pleasure of Jhāna is more intense as it is born from seclusion. Prior to this, upon the first flashes of the rūpa (nimitta) it begins to intensify along with the stillness.
The prerequisite of rapture is joy. And rapture is the prerequisite of tranquility.

Does a tranquil person think less and observe with his senses less?

What is it about the nimitta that causes samadhi to come about?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:33 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:25 am
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:15 am

Pleasure (sukha) is a prerequisite for samadhi.

How does the absence of thought and sense impressions bring about this necessary sukha?
As the meditation deepens some rapture will arise along with a sense of letting go and deepening concentration, as well as increasing stillness and the subsiding of thoughts. The rapture and pleasure of Jhāna is more intense as it is born from seclusion. Prior to this, upon the first flashes of the rūpa (nimitta) it begins to intensify along with the stillness.
The prerequisite of rapture is joy. And rapture is the prerequisite of tranquility.

Does a tranquil person think less and observe with his senses less?

What is it about the nimitta that causes samadhi to come about?
Joy arises based on virtue, sense restraint and faith (for someone who isn't awake). These are worked on prior, as a foundation, which come to mind when sitting down to meditate. Also the joy of training in the Higher Virtue of renunciation, which is part of developing the Jhānā. A still mind naturally means no thinking. There is no thinking about or thinking in general when approaching or entering the Jhānā, no "you" in approaching or entering the Jhānā. The nimitta is the sign of increasing concentration and seclusion. The rapture and happiness of the 1st Jhāna is born from seclusion. The nimitta, naturally, varies from person to person. A flash, when weak, of illuminating light for some like lightning. An orb, that comes and goes if weak, for others. Perhaps even tactile ones, possibly.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 11:57 pm When ....approaching access concentration, let alone Jhana, the mind becomes increasingly still. In that developing stillness the physical body begins to fade away, as does a sense of “you” and “you” doing anything.
:goodpost: :bow: :buddha1:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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