suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:31 pm
Also, I'm not sure who said it but saying that the first jhana is without thought is ridiculous because thought is a factor of the jhana. Thought does not subside until attainment into the second jhana when it no longer has any use and the mind has reached unification. No matter, there will be disgreements to that statement but that's going to boil down to how the individual is defining where the first begins and ends and makes little difference in actual practice.
Vitakka-vicāra are not "thoughts" as in an internal dialogue, or thinking about something. They are closer to intentions (MN 105). Thoughts would disturb the stillness of the mind, thus moving the mind away from Jhāna. You don't think about Jhāna. You do not think your way into Jhāna. There is no thinking in Jhāna. "You" do nothing. Thoughts are stilled and are left behind since to enter Jhāna there has to be letting go.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed May 05, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:26 pm
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:59 pm
Respectfully, I don’t find that obvious.

The Upanisa Sutta (transcendental DO) seems to obviously be a blueprint for first and second jhana.

For example - the scheme goes as follows:

Joy; Rapture; Tranquility; Sukha; Samadhi

Jhana formulas for first and second read “born of seclusion” and “born of composure” - however the Upanisa Sutta is much like the Anapanasati Sutta where the stock elements of rapture and pleasure (or bliss) are mixed in with features not mentioned in stock jhana formulas.

That is to say the path of Anapanasati and transcendental DO are also jhanic in nature. IMO, of course.
The piti and sukha in ānāpānasati occurs before Jhāna, and so it is not born from seclusion. Two different types.
Nope :tongue:

What about “born of seclusion”; “born of composure”? Same or different?
What part of the jhana are you saying is three marks? The pleasure and rapture? Or the skhandas?
All of it, which you can't know whilst in it.
🧐 Quaintly put, with a dash of wit. :tongue:

Nonetheless, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:38 pm
Nope :tongue:

What about “born of seclusion”; “born of composure”? Same or different?
How can you say no? Piti and sukha arise before samadhi in mindfulness of breathing. The piti and sukha in Jhāna are said to be born from seclusion. They are of a different character.
🧐 Quaintly put, with a dash of wit. :tongue:

Nonetheless, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
You can't know that Jhāna is impermanent, dukkha and not-self until it has fallen away. If it has fallen away then you are not in Jhāna. There is no insight whilst in any Jhāna.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:35 pm Vitakka-vicāra are not "thoughts" as in an internal dialogue, or thinking about something. They are closer to intentions (MN 105). Thoughts would disturb the stillness of the mind, thus moving the mind away from Jhāna. You don't think about Jhāna. You do not think your way into Jhāna. There is no thinking in Jhāna. "You" do nothing. Thoughts are stilled and are left behind since to enter Jhāna there has to be letting go.
I did not say they are. The word thoughts in english covers nearly the same ground as the term vitakka vicara does.

If you think about, contemplate and mull over a decision to buy a car, you are concentrating the mind on that subject just as when you think about the breath. This is not necessarily verbal, but neither is it necessarily non-verbal. In jhana, it will almost always be non-verbal, though verbal discursive thinking can be used as a tool as well if one is skilled in doing so.

In fact, the Dvedhavitakka sutta makes quite clear that what we're suppose to do is turn our mind first towards renunciation, non-ill-will, and harmlessness, then towards the deathless.

It's of special note that the type of thinking in that sutta is also called "vitakka-vicara" as is the type of thinking used in the jhana pericope within the same sutta, without redefinition.

The only real difference seems to be the presence of the jhana factor of piti-sukha. The most important thing that I would stress is that whether you view "vitakka-vicara" in terms of "thinking imbued with renunciation etc." or as "non-verbal intentions" in terms of what makes it a jhana factor, we should never ever ever reject the practice of turning the discursive mind towards renunciation, non-ill-will and harmlessness, whether you view that as a preliminary or as part of jhana.

If we want to get really nitpicky and "I'm right" about it, the only thing that makes vitakka-vicara as a jhana factor different from normal thinking is that the other jhana factors are also present and that this thinking is centered around skillful qualities and non-sensuality. Again, in practice this is going to be mostly non-verbal but we cannot discard discursive thought when it can be so helpful as a tool, simply because we think it's not a jhana factor, even though it's quite clear that it is.

I stand, not only can you think yourself into a jhana, but you must do so.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:53 pm
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:38 pm
Nope :tongue:

What about “born of seclusion”; “born of composure”? Same or different?
How can you say no? Piti and sukha arise before samadhi in mindfulness of breathing. The piti and sukha in Jhāna are said to be born from seclusion. They are of a different character.
I’ll explain how later. But for now; this question. Is 1st Jhana rapture different or the same as second jhana rapture?
🧐 Quaintly put, with a dash of wit. :tongue:

Nonetheless, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
You can't know that Jhāna is impermanent, dukkha and not-self until it has fallen away. If it has fallen away then you are not in Jhāna. There is no insight whilst in any Jhāna.
Okay. So you belong to the camp who says samadhi eliminates all sense perception and cognition.

I’m in the other camp. The MN 111 camp (so to speak). I wholeheartedly believe that jhana is fully experienced - that rapture, sukha, and samadhi are all cognized.

This is supported by sutta. And it conforms to my experience. As I’ve said - in samadhi I see a haze of sparkly flecks of consciousness.

I do not, alternatively, approach a nimitta which swallows me up to such a point that I have no control over if and how I’ll ever emerge and/or whether or not I retain any recollection of it.

We are butting heads. It’s a futile stand off. Let’s just call it a day on that one. Maybe I’ll see you in “The Great Jhana Debate” :tongue:
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:53 pm You can't know that Jhāna is impermanent, dukkha and not-self until it has fallen away. If it has fallen away then you are not in Jhāna. There is no insight whilst in any Jhāna.
Is this true of all phenomena? Can I look at a rock and not know it's impermenant until it's out of view? Are you confusing vitakka-vicara with sanna? Thoughts are not the same as perceptions, perceptions can and must occur in jhana and they don't fall away until cessation of perception and feeling occurs.
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm
I stand, not only can you think yourself into a jhana, but you must do so.
This is mistaken. Mindfulness of breathing cuts off thoughts.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:53 pm You can't know that Jhāna is impermanent, dukkha and not-self until it has fallen away. If it has fallen away then you are not in Jhāna. There is no insight whilst in any Jhāna.
Is this true of all phenomena? Can I look at a rock and not know it's impermenant until it's out of view? Are you confusing vitakka-vicara with sanna? Thoughts are not the same as perceptions, perceptions can and must occur in jhana and they don't fall away until cessation of perception and feeling occurs.
You can't know that Jhāna is impermanent, dukkha and not-self until it falls away.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:38 pm
I’ll explain how later. But for now; this question. Is 1st Jhana rapture different or the same as second jhana rapture?
The same.
Okay. So you belong to the camp who says samadhi eliminates all sense perception and cognition.
No, because no one says that.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
pitithefool
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:39 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:44 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm
I stand, not only can you think yourself into a jhana, but you must do so.
This is mistaken. Mindfulness of breathing cuts off thoughts.
So if you have mindfulness of breathing with vitakka-vicara(again defined as thoughts, verbal fabrications), it's not a jhana? So then you can't do first jhana with breathing meditation?
Please note: This profile picture is not actually a picture of the user.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:44 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:34 pm
I stand, not only can you think yourself into a jhana, but you must do so.
This is mistaken. Mindfulness of breathing cuts off thoughts.
So if you have mindfulness of breathing with vitakka-vicara(again defined as thoughts, verbal fabrications), it's not a jhana? So then you can't do first jhana with breathing meditation?
Vitakka-vicāra are not "thinking and pondering" but are intentions in the Jhāna pericope. The Jhāna are states of stillness, letting go and absorption. Thoughts are harsh ripples in the mind which prevent said tranquility, like waves in a pool prevent the pool from being perfectly still. You do not think about the breath. The breath calms the mind and the mind calms the breath. The breath becomes more and more refined and the mind becomes more and more still, until the breath disappears and the nimitta appears. None of this involves thinking about it. It a natural flow of conditions. Trying to think about it and control it all is craving, whilst ordinary background thoughts are signs of the mind not being still and so of distraction.

"But then, a mendicant grounded on these five things should develop four further things. They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’. When you perceive impermanence, the perception of not-self becomes stabilized. Perceiving not-self, you uproot the conceit ‘I am’ and attain extinguishment in this very life.” AN 9.1
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed May 05, 2021 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11170
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pm So if you have mindfulness of breathing with vitakka-vicara (again defined as thoughts, verbal fabrications), it's not a jhana?
vitakka-vicara in the 1st jhana do not refer to ordinary thoughts. MN 19 should make this clear:
And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

MN 19
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12806
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:02 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pm So if you have mindfulness of breathing with vitakka-vicara (again defined as thoughts, verbal fabrications), it's not a jhana?
vitakka-vicara in the 1st jhana do not refer to ordinary thoughts. MN 19 should make this clear:
And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

MN 19
:goodpost:
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11170
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:02 pm :goodpost:
:thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:49 pm
Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:38 pm
I’ll explain how later. But for now; this question. Is 1st Jhana rapture different or the same as second jhana rapture?
The same.
So rapture born of seclusion is the same as rapture born of composure; yet rapture born of joy (or breath for example) is entirely different?

On the surface your rationale appears pretty ad hoc.

Here’s where I’ll explain why I say “nope”. The Upanisa Sutta outlines these conditions (and more):

“Suffering; faith; rapture; tranquility; sukha; samadhi”

Why then, we may ask, did the Buddha preach transcendental DO if not for the very purpose of teaching samma samadhi? Ie. right concentration? Ie. Jhana?

The obvious conclusion is that the path of transcendental DO is not different from samma samadhi (jhana). In fact, transcendental DO explains to us that rapture comes before sukha because it must condition tranquility as a mediator!

Therefore, your argument that the rapture born of joy is not jhanic (because it comes before samadhi) is ass backwards!

Samadhi does NOT produce rapture or pleasure! It is the other way around!

Being submerged in a nimitta, therefore, is not rapture or pleasure. It’s a quick way to get a dry orgasm and lose consciousness :tongue:

But, if you say so: then ... there are these questions.

What is the quintessential similarity between seclusion and composure that allows two different seeds to produce the same flower? And what is the quintessential difference between above mentioned seeds and the seed of joy or (for example) the seed of breath - such that another flower is produced???
Okay. So you belong to the camp who says samadhi eliminates all sense perception and cognition.
No, because no one says that.
Well. What do they say? You certainly don’t believe it’s possible to practice insight during samadhi. What is the reason for that point of view?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Post Reply