suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:57 pm
Put it this way, how can anyone think "This is my True Self" when in the actual attainment of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana? ;)
It's not so much thinking that "this is my true self" so much as "as long as one is engaged in the act of becoming in this case, in the formless realm, there is an identity".
That point being when it comes to the attainment of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana without any doubt, even for the Jhāna-lite folks, it is impossible to think at all since there is barely any mind left to speak of. What is there, for the likes of Uddaka Rāmaputta who is currently existing in that realm, is the underlying tendencies and taints. For those ascetics who are still human and who, unlike Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta, are eternalists the thought and view of that state being a true self comes after leaving said attainment. In the sutta of MN 111 that you gave earlier, as you noted, there is nothing to be said when actually in the attainment. It's a blank and barely conscious state.

Anyway, I think I will leave it there. I've said all that needs to be said. Time to have a short break from posting online. All the best :smile:

:anjali:
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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pitithefool
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:55 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:39 pm
You're in a jhana, you leave and on account of that concentration, you have insight. Did the insight actually go away while you were in the jhana and suddenly materialize when you left it, or was it there, developing and turning your attention towards it to utilize brought it into your awareness?
You are confusing insight with paññā, which is merely jñā. I wonder if Ajahn Sumedho's concept of "intuitive awareness" is apt here? Possibly not. Regarding insight, as stated, this is the outcome of wise reflection. Of paṭisañcikkhati. This is what the other ascetics lacked, which is why simply attaining the jhānāni is not enough for insight. You have to actually wisely think and reflect upon said experience. Regarding paññā, defining that is another whole can of worms. Regardless though, this is merely the end result so we need not concern ourselves with it too much here. Actually getting to this state of understanding is what is important. This is via paṭisañcikkhati after access concentration or the jhānāni, leading to insight. To give an example, after reaching access concentration, leaving it, reflecting wisely and gaining the insight followed by understanding that thinking is a disturbance and what is a condition for it then, when entering meditation again, there is simply knowledge of this. You simply naturally let go, naturally have wise attention and the mind calms down far better than before. Intuitive understanding. Intuitive letting go, which isn't a fabrication nor a thought. It isn't willed.
Yes, this is what I mean. The work from learning dhamma makes it so you sort of "just know" and have an intuitive grasp of what to do while meditating. The actual actions that come from it are fabrications though, as is the vipassana, which is a mode of perception, but it's not something I could say you have to exit concentration in order for it to happen. Mind you again the actual letting go, yes that's a sankhara, as is the perception leading to it, but when that happens, the jhana factors neither weaken nor go away, and the fabrications themselves can be extremely subtle. This is why I don't like saying you leave concentration in order to partake of distinction. It's barely noticeable. This comes from practice though. You may have to get "stuck" at the first jhana and leave entirely, then think about it for a day or two, then do it again before your intuitive grasp of it is such to be able to advance. What your doing is setting up the conditions beforehand so that insight into the jhana factors on the spot is understood on a visceral intuitive level.

Again, the vipassana is the sight, and the panna is the knowledge of what to do about it.
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pitithefool
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:37 pm
That point being when it comes to the attainment of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana without any doubt, even for the Jhāna-lite folks, it is impossible to think at all since there is barely any mind left to speak of. What is there, for the likes of Uddaka Rāmaputta who is currently existing in that realm, is the underlying tendencies and taints. For those ascetics who are still human and who, unlike Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta, are eternalists the thought and view of that state being a true self comes after leaving said attainment. In the sutta of MN 111 that you gave earlier, as you noted, there is nothing to be said when actually in the attainment. It's a blank and barely conscious state.

Anyway, I think I will leave it there. I've said all that needs to be said. Time to have a short break from posting online. All the best :smile:

:anjali:
Wise choice :anjali:

Hmm let's think of this though. A bit nit-picky I know but are you saying that the mind of someone who views the attainment as self or eternal is non-different than one who views it as non-self and impermanent, while they are in it?
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pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
There is your discursive thinking.
"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
No thinking required for this. If you put your hands on a hot stove you know what to do ... no need to think.
The Blessed One said: “Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination1 & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling… perception… fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_5.html
You should develop concentration, bhikkhus. Concentrated, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands as it actually is. And what does he understand as it actually is?

He understands as it actually is: 'This is suffering' He understands as it actually is: 'This is the cause of suffering' He understands as it actually is: 'This is the cessation of suffering' He understands as it actually is: 'This is the path leading to the cessation of suffering'.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/samy ... 6-001.html
So can insight[vipassana] occur in samadhi without thinking?

Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko
Last edited by pegembara on Sun May 09, 2021 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

"However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development.[1] [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

"And what qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge? Tranquillity & insight: these are the qualities that are to be developed through direct knowledge.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Why is there still doubt about what the Buddha meant?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Ratnakar
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:20 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:19 pm

The Vism. states here that only the non-returner and Arahant have achieved the Higher Mind:



Chapter 1 - Description of Virtue
Thanks, what did buddhaghosa mean by "perfected in concentration" here ?

Could you include another quote where buddhaghosa explicitly supported the notion that only the attainment of jhana is "perfected in concentration" ?
The jhānāni. That is the only time that phrase comes up, in English translations.
Maybe you could try other keyword, couldn't you ?
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:19 pm The Vimuttimagga says the stream-enterer and once-returner cannot enter into meditation upon Nibbana because they lack the development of the Higher Mind (Jhana). The Visuddhimagga says they can despite not having achieved Jhana.
Could you explain to me what you meaned with the above quote ?
skandha
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by skandha »

Pondera wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:15 am
How does the absence of thought and sense impressions bring about this necessary sukha?
Sariputta addresses a type of sukha where nothing is felt in AN 9.34

There he addressed the mendicants: “Reverends, extinguishment is bliss! Extinguishment is bliss!”
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him, “But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.
Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk, and consciousness like an illusion
- SN 22.95
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by auto »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/05/suttas-where-mind-and-body-your.html wrote:api ca kho me aticiraṃ anu-vitakkayato anu-vicārayato
except that thinking & pondering a long time
kāyo kilameyya.
would tire the body (kaya).
kāye kilante VAR cittaṃ ūhaññeyya.
When the body is tired, the mind (citta) is disturbed;
ūhate citte ārā cittaṃ samādhimhāti.
(and a) disturbed mind (is) far (from a) mind (in) undistractable-lucidity.’


So the sutta says,
the anatomical physical body of the meditator would become tired if he thinks too intensely, and that in turn would cause the mind to be disturbed (as opposed to passadhi pacification/relaxation awakening factor).
thinking makes body what is known by the vinnana tired. And the disturbed mind is namarupa, that too is physically felt, rupa here made up from 4 main elements.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2021/04/dn-2-conclusively-details-what-is-rupa.html wrote:So evaṃ pajānāti:
They understand:
‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is physical.
cātu-mahā-bhūtiko
It’s made up of the four primary elements,
mātā-pettika-sambhavo
produced by mother and father,
odana-kummās-ūpacayo
built up from rice and porridge,
anicc-ucchādana-parimaddana--
liable to impermanence,-- to wearing away -- and erosion,
--bhedana-viddhaṃsana-dhammo
-- to breaking up -- and destruction.
idañca pana me viññāṇaṃ ettha sitaṃ ettha paṭibaddhan’ti.
And this consciousness of mine is attached to it, tied to it.’
from above link,
"And this consciousness of mine is attached to it, tied to it." ->
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/sujato wrote:When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
seem like namarupa is conceived by mother and father.
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