suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

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pitithefool
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:29 pm That requires paṭisañcikkhati:

Idhānanda, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhippaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo nirodho nibbānan’ti.
It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’

Yes, and it stays around after that. Again vipassana is not the same thing as vitakka-vicara. Just as the piti-sukha in second has removed the support struts of vitakka-vicara for its sustenance and is dependent on samadhi, so too with vipassana.

Again, the suttas define vipassana as something else entirely from what the vsm does.

What is often called vipassana is in fact the process of giving rise to vipassana rather than the vipassana itself. Does that make sense?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:29 pm
That no sense of self exists while in jhana
"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'
Not necessarily true. If this were true, people of other traditions would have attained liberation long before the Buddha. Even in non-returners there is an identity here though.
A sense of self only occurs when the underlying tendencies, the taints, become activated through ignorance based contact:

"When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him." - SN 22.47

The underlying tendencies do not underlie the spiritual vedanā of the jhānāni:

“[Q] What underlying tendencies underlie each of the three feelings?”

“[A] The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignorance underlies neutral feeling...

"[Q] Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings?”

“[A]No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that."
- MN 44

There is then no sense of self in the jhānāni, since it can't be "activated". What the other ascetics were doing was fabricating metaphysical views about said attainments regarding a True Self etc once they had left them. Naturally all this means if you feel "you" are there, if there is a sense of self and of a controller in the Jhāna then it is not Jhāna. Having any experience of pain is also an indication that it is not Jhāna.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:01 pm ...
The Vism. states here that only the non-returner and Arahant have achieved the Higher Mind:
14. [6] Likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue; that for the state of non-return, by concentration; that for Arahantship by understanding. For the stream-enterer is called “perfected in the kinds of virtue”; and likewise the once-returner. But the non-returner is called “perfected in concentration.” And the Arahant is called “perfected in understanding” (see A I 233).
Chapter 1 - Description of Virtue
Thanks, what did buddhaghosa mean by "perfected in concentration" here ?

Could you include another quote where buddhaghosa explicitly supported the notion that only the attainment of jhana is "perfected in concentration" ?
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:19 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:01 pm ...
The Vism. states here that only the non-returner and Arahant have achieved the Higher Mind:
14. [6] Likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue; that for the state of non-return, by concentration; that for Arahantship by understanding. For the stream-enterer is called “perfected in the kinds of virtue”; and likewise the once-returner. But the non-returner is called “perfected in concentration.” And the Arahant is called “perfected in understanding” (see A I 233).
Chapter 1 - Description of Virtue
Thanks, what did buddhaghosa mean by "perfected in concentration" here ?

Could you include another quote where buddhaghosa explicitly supported the notion that only the attainment of jhana is "perfected in concentration" ?
The jhānāni. That is the only time that phrase comes up, in English translations.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:15 pm

A sense of self only occurs when the underlying tendencies, the taints, become activated through ignorance based contact:

"When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him." - SN 22.47

The underlying tendencies do not underlie the spiritual vedanā of the jhānāni:

“[Q] What underlying tendencies underlie each of the three feelings?”

“[A] The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignorance underlies neutral feeling...

"[Q] Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings?”

“[A]No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected."
- MN 44

There is then no sense of self in the jhānāni, since it can't be "activated". What the other ascetics were doing was fabricating metaphysical views about said attainments regarding a True Self etc once they had left them. Naturally all this means if you feel "you" are there. If there is a sense of self and of a controller in the Jhāna then it is not Jhāna.
The evidence you give contradicts your conclusion. Rather, this sutta states it's the underlying tendencies that are used in order to attain the jhana.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:09 pm
Yes, and it stays around after that. Again vipassana is not the same thing as vitakka-vicara. Just as the piti-sukha in second has removed the support struts of vitakka-vicara for its sustenance and is dependent on samadhi, so too with vipassana.
I never said it was. Vipassana is not a "thing". It is the result of wise reflection, which is then the basis for understanding.
Again, the suttas define vipassana as something else entirely from what the vsm does.
I'm honestly not much interested in the Visuddhimagga here. All of my replies, as ever, have been sutta based. If the Visuddhimagga agrees that is just a bonus. It's not wrong about everything, which would be a bizarre notion.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat May 08, 2021 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:15 pm

A sense of self only occurs when the underlying tendencies, the taints, become activated through ignorance based contact:

"When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him." - SN 22.47

The underlying tendencies do not underlie the spiritual vedanā of the jhānāni:

“[Q] What underlying tendencies underlie each of the three feelings?”

“[A] The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignorance underlies neutral feeling...

"[Q] Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings?”

“[A]No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected."
- MN 44

There is then no sense of self in the jhānāni, since it can't be "activated". What the other ascetics were doing was fabricating metaphysical views about said attainments regarding a True Self etc once they had left them. Naturally all this means if you feel "you" are there. If there is a sense of self and of a controller in the Jhāna then it is not Jhāna.
The evidence you give contradicts your conclusion. Rather, this sutta states it's the underlying tendencies that are used in order to attain the jhana.
I missed off part of the passage:

“[A]No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that."

There can be desire for them, but there is no greed within them. The same for nibbāna, to give another example.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:22 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:09 pm
Yes, and it stays around after that. Again vipassana is not the same thing as vitakka-vicara. Just as the piti-sukha in second has removed the support struts of vitakka-vicara for its sustenance and is dependent on samadhi, so too with vipassana.
I never said it was. Vipassana is not a "thing". It is the result of wise reflection, which is then the bases for understanding.
Again, the suttas define vipassana as something else entirely from what the vsm does.
I'm honestly not much interested in the Visuddhimagga much here. All of my replies, as ever, have been sutta based. If the Visuddhimagga agrees that is just a bonus. It's not wrong about everything, which would be a bizarre notion.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying that you don't understand the points I'm making because the definition of our terms are different.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:22 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:09 pm
Yes, and it stays around after that. Again vipassana is not the same thing as vitakka-vicara. Just as the piti-sukha in second has removed the support struts of vitakka-vicara for its sustenance and is dependent on samadhi, so too with vipassana.
I never said it was. Vipassana is not a "thing". It is the result of wise reflection, which is then the bases for understanding.
Again, the suttas define vipassana as something else entirely from what the vsm does.
I'm honestly not much interested in the Visuddhimagga much here. All of my replies, as ever, have been sutta based. If the Visuddhimagga agrees that is just a bonus. It's not wrong about everything, which would be a bizarre notion.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying that you don't understand the points I'm making because the definition of our terms are different.
I understand what you are saying, it's just wrong or contradictory. You cannot have insight without paṭisañcikkhati. On a Jhāna-lite model you cannot then have insight after the 1st Jhāna. On an absorbed model you cannot have it in any Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:27 pm
pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:22 pm

I never said it was. Vipassana is not a "thing". It is the result of wise reflection, which is then the bases for understanding.



I'm honestly not much interested in the Visuddhimagga much here. All of my replies, as ever, have been sutta based. If the Visuddhimagga agrees that is just a bonus. It's not wrong about everything, which would be a bizarre notion.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying that you don't understand the points I'm making because the definition of our terms are different.
I understand what you are saying, it's just wrong or contradictory. You cannot have insight without paṭisañcikkhati. On a Jhāna-lite model you cannot then have insight after the 2nd Jhāna. On an absorbed model you cannot have it in any Jhāna.
Ok thought experiment:

You're in a jhana, you leave and on account of that concentration, you have insight. Did the insight actually go away while you were in the jhana and suddenly materialize when you left it, or was it there, developing and turning your attention towards it to utilize brought it into your awareness?

This is the same thing as "if a tree falling in a forest falls and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound"? Or "if I'm not aware of it, can it really be said to exist"?

In this case, The argument I'm making again based on the suttas I've been citing is that yes, the vipassana is there even though we're not aware of it, and in jhana, we aren't paying attention to it because we don't have to, as its support is concentration. However, the fact that when we do observe it, it can be discerned to strengthen as concentration strengthens suggests that it's tied up with concentration and not apart from it. This vipassana is when tells the mind in the first jhana to stick with its object, in the second it's simply stabilized and we aren't aware of it anymore.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:23 pm
There can be desire for them, but there is no greed within them. The same for nibbāna, to give another example.
How do you explain this?
"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'
This seems to say that even the most refined perceptions constitute an identity. But not always so.

Is the identity present in one who is in the attainment? Is the identity present in a follower of another tradition who is attaining neither perception nor non-perception?
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:39 pm
You're in a jhana, you leave and on account of that concentration, you have insight. Did the insight actually go away while you were in the jhana and suddenly materialize when you left it, or was it there, developing and turning your attention towards it to utilize brought it into your awareness?
You are confusing insight with paññā, which is merely jñā. I wonder if Ajahn Sumedho's concept of "intuitive awareness" is apt here? Possibly not. Regarding insight, as stated, this is the outcome of wise reflection. Of paṭisañcikkhati. This is what the other ascetics lacked, which is why simply attaining the jhānāni is not enough for insight. You have to actually wisely think and reflect upon said experience. Regarding paññā, defining that is another whole can of worms. Regardless though, this is merely the end result so we need not concern ourselves with it too much here. Actually getting to this state of understanding is what is important. This is via paṭisañcikkhati after access concentration or the jhānāni, leading to insight. To give an example, after reaching access concentration, leaving it, reflecting wisely and gaining the insight followed by understanding that thinking is a disturbance and what is a condition for it then, when entering meditation again, there is simply knowledge of this. You simply naturally let go, naturally have wise attention and the mind calms down far better than before. Intuitive understanding. Intuitive letting go, which isn't a fabrication nor a thought. It isn't willed.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat May 08, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:23 pm
There can be desire for them, but there is no greed within them. The same for nibbāna, to give another example.
How do you explain this?
"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'
This seems to say that even the most refined perceptions constitute an identity. But not always so.

Is the identity present in one who is in the attainment? Is the identity present in a follower of another tradition who is attaining neither perception nor non-perception?
Put it this way, how can anyone think "This is my True Self" when in the actual attainment of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana? ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ceisiwr »

One of the greatest barriers to access concentration & the jhānāni is in trying to figure them out. In thinking about and trying to figure out the meditation itself and trying to control it. Thinking of it in terms of stages. Thinking about it in terms of "is this x"? The jhānāni are states of stillness, letting go, calming down and peace. Just let go.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:57 pm
Put it this way, how can anyone think "This is my True Self" when in the actual attainment of nevasaññānāsaññāyatana? ;)
It's not so much thinking that "this is my true self" so much as "as long as one is engaged in the act of becoming in this case, in the formless realm, there is an identity".
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