suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoherence (

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pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

Hopefully this has not been discussed earlier -TLDR

Samatha and vipassana should be yoked toegether.
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

In defence of samatha-
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

https://ibc-elibrary.thanhsiang.org/fil ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Sat May 08, 2021 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
BrokenBones
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by BrokenBones »

It must be so tiresome for the 'hard jhana' people each time a sutta is quoted to irrevocably puncture their distorted view of jhana.

The amount of nit-picking, obfuscation, grammatical fancies and wilful ignorance that takes place must be very draining.
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Pondera
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:27 am In defence of samatha-
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

https://ibc-elibrary.thanhsiang.org/fil ... .than.html
Indeed. But the crux is: does this occur during Jhana or after emerging from it?

EDIT: it seems you have already cast your vote. Welcome, friend - to the soft jhana EBT world of bliss and samadhi!
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:37 am
pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:27 am In defence of samatha-

Indeed. But the crux is: does this occur during Jhana or after emerging from it?

EDIT: it seems you have already cast your vote. Welcome, friend - to the soft jhana EBT world of bliss and samadhi!

Perhaps the world of bliss and ecstasy belongs to the hard jhanas!
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
waryoffolly
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by waryoffolly »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:37 am
pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:27 am In defence of samatha-
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

https://ibc-elibrary.thanhsiang.org/fil ... .than.html
Indeed. But the crux is: does this occur during Jhana or after emerging from it?
And another interesting question: If you believe insight occurs after jhana, then why not just develop samadhi to the same level as post-jhana samadhi and use that for insight practice?

If you believe insight occurs outside of jhana then you must also either believe: 1. You can develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi and therefore jhana is irrelevant for insight or 2. You cannot develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi without first entering jhana.

If you believe 1, then the Buddha repeatedly taught an unneeded level of samadhi and even defined this unneeded level of samadhi as the samadhi bala (and I think indriya as well).

2 also seems like quite a strange thing to believe! It’s basically saying that you have to “overreach” your samadhi in order to attain sufficient concentration for insight. Ie to reach a insight productive samadhi at, to be crude, say 7/10 you first must develop a higher level samadhi at a 9/10 and exit it. Why couldn’t you just develop samadhi straight to the level of 7/10 needed for insight without having to go to 9/10 first?
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Pondera
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:40 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:37 am
pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:27 am In defence of samatha-

Indeed. But the crux is: does this occur during Jhana or after emerging from it?

EDIT: it seems you have already cast your vote. Welcome, friend - to the soft jhana EBT world of bliss and samadhi!

Perhaps the world of bliss and ecstasy belongs to the hard jhanas!
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Indeed. There are those who develop samatha and rid them selves of passion. Seems to imply that this, in and of itself, is the course towards discernment - and not otherwise.

Are you being coy? :jumping: just come out and say it. Are you hard or soft? :rofl:

(It’s Friday. Come on. It wouldn’t be Friday without a penis joke! Right!???)
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

Light jhanas?
The Discourse on
the Grounds for Liberation
A 5.26

“Here, monks, a monk is taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner. Monks, when that monk is being taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, he experience the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the first circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

“Here, monks, a monk is not taught Dhamma by the Teacher or by a respected co-practitioner, does not teach to others in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, and does not recite in detail the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, but he thinks about, mentally explores, and mentally examines the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered. Monks, when a monk thinks about, mentally explores, and mentally examines the Dhamma that he has heard and mastered, he experiences the meaning and the Dhamma. When one experiences the meaning and the Dhamma, joyfulness is born. When one is joyful, euphoria is born. When one has a euphoric mind, one’s body becomes tranquil. When one has a tranquil body, one experiences happiness. When one is happy, one’s mind enters samādhi. Monks, this is the fourth circumstance of liberation where a monk who is vigilant, ardent, and self-directed liberates his unliberated mind, eliminates his uneliminated corruptions, and attains the unattained supreme safety.

http://bhantesuddhaso.com/teachings/sut ... ana-sutta/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by pegembara »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:50 am
Indeed. There are those who develop samatha and rid them selves of passion. Seems to imply that this, in and of itself, is the course towards discernment - and not otherwise.

Are you being coy? :jumping: just come out and say it. Are you hard or soft? :rofl:

(It’s Friday. Come on. It wouldn’t be Friday without a penis joke! Right!???)
You can't mean you can still have insight without sense restraint. Listening to dhamma talk while enjoying a movie?

Yes, I am a softie. :tongue:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Ratnakar »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:44 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:39 am So where does one do vippassana in access or in jhana ?
Both and after. However, the vipassana in jhana will be limited to the jhana itself. In other words, it won't be vipassana into the breathing, or vipassana of dependent origination, or vipassana of each of the five aggregates rising & falling, or of the six sense bases. However it will be vipassana of the nature of rapture, feelings, etc. Plus the jhana will have lots of selflessness or anatta of both the jhana itself and the 'observer' ('consciousness') of the jhana. The suttas clearly say in jhana there will be vipassana of the jhana itself; how the factors of jhana are discerned as impermanent, unsatisfactory, not-self, alien, impinging (a dart), etc, and how the (vipassana) Noble mind can separate/distinguish the jhana itself from the Deathless Element (Nibbana).

Unlike the drunken fools drunk on whatever piti they can Brasingtonally volitionally concoct, the Noble Disciples in real jhana view the piti (rapture) as unsatisfactory, alien, impinging, etc, because the Noble Disciple's mind is rooted in the peaceful letting go of the Deathless Element.
So one does observing a&p of 5 aggregates in access, doesn't one?
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by mikenz66 »

Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:37 am
pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:27 am
The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.
https://ibc-elibrary.thanhsiang.org/fil ... .than.html
Indeed. But the crux is: does this occur during Jhana or after emerging from it?
“Mendicants, develop immersion.
“samādhiṁ, bhikkhave, bhāvetha;
A mendicant who has immersion truly understands.
samāhito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.5/en/sujato
My grasp of Pali syntax is not strong, but according to the Pali lookup on Sutta Central, samāhito is the past participle form. Whether it means "was in samādhi" or "entered samādhi in the past and is still in it" seems to be the crux of the matter.

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mikenz66
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by mikenz66 »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:49 am If you believe insight occurs outside of jhana then you must also either believe: 1. You can develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi and therefore jhana is irrelevant for insight or 2. You cannot develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi without first entering jhana.
My impression is that you need both for full awakening.
What is the benefit of developing serenity?
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamatthamanubhoti? Variant: kamatthamanubhoti → kimattha … (sya-all, km); katamattha … (mr)
The mind is developed.
Cittaṁ bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing the mind?
Cittaṁ bhāvitaṁ kamatthamanubhoti?
Greed is given up.
Yo rāgo so pahīyati.

What is the benefit of developing discernment?
Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Wisdom is developed.
Paññā bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing wisdom?
Paññā bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Ignorance is given up.
Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#1.4
:heart:
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waryoffolly
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by waryoffolly »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:55 am
waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:49 am If you believe insight occurs outside of jhana then you must also either believe: 1. You can develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi and therefore jhana is irrelevant for insight or 2. You cannot develop samadhi of the same strength as post-jhana samadhi without first entering jhana.
My impression is that you need both for full awakening.
What is the benefit of developing serenity?
Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamatthamanubhoti? Variant: kamatthamanubhoti → kimattha … (sya-all, km); katamattha … (mr)
The mind is developed.
Cittaṁ bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing the mind?
Cittaṁ bhāvitaṁ kamatthamanubhoti?
Greed is given up.
Yo rāgo so pahīyati.

What is the benefit of developing discernment?
Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Wisdom is developed.
Paññā bhāvīyati.
What is the benefit of developing wisdom?
Paññā bhāvitā kamatthamanubhoti?
Ignorance is given up.
Yā avijjā sā pahīyati.
https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/sujato#1.4
:heart:
Mike
Yes I agree that samatha and vipassana are needed. However, I interpret both samatha and vipassana as present in jhana. The sati-sampajano in the third jhana formula, and the upekkha-sati-parisuddhim in the fourth seem to be clearly stating this to me. I think it’s odd to interpret either of those phrases as pure samatha, to me they instead suggest the purification and perfection of vipassana! Although I’m open to evidence to the contrary on this.
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by mikenz66 »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:46 am Yes I agree that samatha and vipassana are needed. However, I interpret both samatha and vipassana as present in jhana. The sati-sampajano in the third jhana formula, and the upekkha-sati-parisuddhim in the fourth seem to be clearly stating this to me. I think it’s odd to interpret either of those phrases as pure samatha, to me they instead suggest the purification and perfection of vipassana! Although I’m open to evidence to the contrary on this.
It appears to be possible for vipassana and samatha to be arise in any order:
One person has internal serenity of heart, but not the higher wisdom of discernment of principles.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa, na lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya.

One person has the higher wisdom of discernment of principles, but not internal serenity of heart.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṁ cetosamathassa.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato
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Re: suttas where mind and body (31 body parts of meditator) dichotomy is incontrovertible, exposing Abhidhamma incoheren

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:00 am
Pondera wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:50 am
Indeed. There are those who develop samatha and rid them selves of passion. Seems to imply that this, in and of itself, is the course towards discernment - and not otherwise.

Are you being coy? :jumping: just come out and say it. Are you hard or soft? :rofl:

(It’s Friday. Come on. It wouldn’t be Friday without a penis joke! Right!???)
You can't mean you can still have insight without sense restraint. Listening to dhamma talk while enjoying a movie?

Yes, I am a softie. :tongue:

Me too. :tongue: As the Buddha said, “the path is like then ocean sea bed. It extends gradually out wards until there is a very steep drop”.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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