Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

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form
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Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by form »

This is an essential factor that must be present and then discarded?
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DooDoot
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

It is rapture arising from seeing the truth in dhammavicaya (2nd factor). It is not the rapture of jhana (6th factor).

While a higher level, due to the direct seeing of dhammavicaya, it is similar to the rapture below:
Faith is a vital condition for joy.
saddhūpanisaṁ pāmojjaṁ,

Joy is a vital condition for rapture.
pāmojjūpanisā pīti,

Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility.
pītūpanisā passaddhi,

Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss.
passaddhūpanisaṁ sukhaṁ,

Bliss is a vital condition for immersion.
sukhūpaniso samādhi,

Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing.
samādhūpanisaṁ yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṁ,

Truly knowing and seeing is a vital condition for disillusionment.
yathābhūtañāṇadassanūpanisā nibbidā,

Disillusionment is a vital condition for dispassion.
nibbidūpaniso virāgo,

Dispassion is a vital condition for freedom.
virāgūpanisā vimutti,

Freedom is a vital condition for the knowledge of ending.
vimuttūpanisaṁ khayeñāṇaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato
Not all rapture is the rapture of jhana; as the drunken piti fools believe. :smile:

What is essential for this rapture factor is the dhammavicaya factor must be present.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
form
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:46 am It is rapture arising from seeing the truth in dhammavicaya (2nd factor). It is not the rapture of jhana (6th factor).

While a higher level, due to the direct seeing of dhammavicaya, it is similar to the rapture below:
Faith is a vital condition for joy.
saddhūpanisaṁ pāmojjaṁ,

Joy is a vital condition for rapture.
pāmojjūpanisā pīti,

Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility.
pītūpanisā passaddhi,

Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss.
passaddhūpanisaṁ sukhaṁ,

Bliss is a vital condition for immersion.
sukhūpaniso samādhi,

Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing.
samādhūpanisaṁ yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṁ,

Truly knowing and seeing is a vital condition for disillusionment.
yathābhūtañāṇadassanūpanisā nibbidā,

Disillusionment is a vital condition for dispassion.
nibbidūpaniso virāgo,

Dispassion is a vital condition for freedom.
virāgūpanisā vimutti,

Freedom is a vital condition for the knowledge of ending.
vimuttūpanisaṁ khayeñāṇaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato
Not all rapture is the rapture of jhana; as the drunken piti fools believe. :smile:

What is essential for this rapture factor is the dhammavicaya factor must be present.
This rapture will fade away isn't it? It came from energy.
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DooDoot
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

Rapture can be underlying, which maintains the enjoyment of meditation, and rapture can also be the dominant meditation object, such in the 5th stage of anapanasati or in 1st and 2nd jhana. The rapture will fade away with the 6th stage of anapanasati however an underlying rapture will be there until completely ceasing in the 3rd jhana.

As I mentioned there are different types of rapture. There is the subtle underlying rapture from seeing the truth (dhammavicaya) or having faith; and then there is rapture as a dominant meditation object, such as step 5 or 1st and 2nd jhana.

Rapture can appear to fade away, such as after step 5 or step 10 of anapanasati however it will not fully fade in the underlying nervous system until the 3rd jhana
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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frank k
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by frank k »

form wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 1:57 am This is an essential factor that must be present and then discarded?
piti (rapture) in 7sb awakening factors is the same as piti in the 4 jhanas.
You can view first jhana piti and 2nd jhana piti as being different in some sense, in intensity for example,
but as far as what the meditator develops, piti in 7sb, piti and 1st and 2nd jhana are the same thing.
It's an independent variable you can turn on or off.
Just like vitakka (verbal thinking) and (vicara) evaluation of that vitakka are each independent variables you can turn on or off. (see AN 8.63)

Piti is like an emotional thrill.

For example, say you hear a joke.
Someone might get a deep belly laugh, repeatedly focus on the mental thrill of it and continue to deep laugh.
someone might just laugh lightly and then just smile.
someone might not smile at the joke at all, but understand perfectly what is funny about the joke, and feel neither pleasant nor painful physical feeling.

That analogy somewhat corresponds with 2nd, 3rd, 4th jhana.

https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/index.html
You follow the 'details' link in that article, you can see most of the passages where piti occurs, and judge for yourself what it actually means.

If you practice jhanas enough, one would naturally turn away from piti just from the novelty wearing off, just as if one hears great jokes all the time you tend not to respond with emotional thrill.
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:02 am piti (rapture) in 7sb awakening factors is the same as piti in the 4 jhanas.
no
Piti is like an emotional thrill.
frank k wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:02 amFor example, say you hear a joke.
Someone might get a deep belly laugh, repeatedly focus on the mental thrill of it and continue to deep laugh.
someone might just laugh lightly and then just smile.
someone might not smile at the joke at all, but understand perfectly what is funny about the joke, and feel neither pleasant nor painful physical feeling.
no. non-sensual rapture of jhana is not the same as the sensual rapture above

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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frank k
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by frank k »

For those learning and trying to get first and second jhana,
developing piti actively is an important supporting condition, just as learning what kinds of fuel will feed and sustain a fire (of jhana) you're trying to start.

https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/index.html


Note this is an important distinction between what the suttas say about piti, and what later Theravada teaches about piti.
VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) treats piti as something of a spontaneous after effect of pure samatha, whereas in the EBT (early suttas) piti, vitakka, vicara, are all important skills to develop on how to think, what to think, to nourish and feed the fire of jhana.

Just a word to the wise on a typical Buddhist forum, you're going to often get a majority following VRJ and giving you wrong advice (contrary to what early suttas say). So when in doubt, read those early suttas and judge for yourself (links above relevant to piti).
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form
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Re: Rapture in 7 factors of enlightenment

Post by form »

Thanks for all the replies.

I would not think there are different kinds of spiritual rapture. I have never come across that before in the suttas. I have only seen sensual happiness and spiritual happiness being mentioned directly.

After looking at the inputs here, I think there is only one kind of rapture, as in jhana (only can be wholesome), so it is the same as the enlightenment rapture. I speculate that the rapture can appear and disappear because the advanced student move around different levels of jhanas like what the Buddha did in some of the suttas.
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