Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
manjusri
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:19 am

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by manjusri »

Does anyone know when these were first formulated and by whom? I am also curious if they can be found in the Theravada? I believe I was introduced to them through a teaching given by HHDL. Thanks, everybody.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by SarathW »

What are Dhamma seals?
It appears this a question for “connection to other paths “ question.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by Dhammanando »

manjusri wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:39 pm Does anyone know when these were first formulated and by whom?
The formulation is an Indian Mahayana one. The use of the seals as a yardstick for judging whether a teaching is Buddhist seems to be Tibetan; perhaps it has an Indian precedent, but I've yet to see one.
manjusri wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:39 pm I am also curious if they can be found in the Theravada?
It depends what you mean.

Are the four propositions that constitute the seals found in Pali sources? Yes, all four are in the suttas.

Are all four ever listed together under the name catulakkhaṇa? No.

Or under some other name? No.

Are the four propositions individually referred to as lakkhaṇas? No, only the first three are.

Are they ever presented as a criterion for whether or not a teaching can be accepted as Buddhist? No, not even in commentarial sources.

Is the word lakkhaṇa (= Skt. lakṣaṇa) ever glossed as a "seal". No, in Pali sources it's consistently understood to mean a "characteristic".
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:06 pm It appears this a question for “connection to other paths “ question.
The General Theravada forum is okay as a place for members to query whether Mahayana teaching X has a Theravada equivalent. If the thread develops into a protracted discussion about the meaning of X then it will be moved to the Connections forum.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:06 pm What are Dhamma seals?
The first three are botched versions of Dhammapada 277-279. The fourth is "Nirvana is peace."
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you Bhante
So what are four Dhamma seals?
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:24 am Thank you Bhante
So what are four Dhamma seals?
:D
I've already told you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Dharma_Seals

https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Four_seals
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by asahi »

All compounded things are impermanent.
All contaminated things are suffering.
All phenomena are empty and devoid of self.
Nirvana is true peace.

The above appears inline with the teachings .
No bashing No gossiping
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Origin of the four (or three) dharma/dhamma seals?

Post by SarathW »

Why Four Noble Truths are not considered Dhamma seal.?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Post Reply