Formless aggregates

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asahi
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Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?


:thanks:
form
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by form »

Beyond your comprehension.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:48 am What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?


:thanks:
I'm not sure what the others mean, but are we not already in the dimension of infinite space? Do we know an end to space?
asahi
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:53 am
I'm not sure what the others mean, but are we not already in the dimension of infinite space? Do we know an end to space?
The question is about what type of aggregates that immaterial plane beings have . Pls see the quote below it doesnt mention what type of aggregates of beings remains in respective realm or plane hence the question .



By Henepola Gunaratana :
Beyond the fine-material sphere lie the immaterial realms, which are four in number — the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. As should be evident, these are realms of rebirth for those who, without having broken the fetters that bind them to samsara, achieve and master one or another of the four immaterial jhanas. Those meditators who have mastery over a formless attainment at the time of death take rebirth in the appropriate plane, where they abide until the kammic force of the jhana is exhausted. Then they pass away, to take rebirth in some other realm as determined by their accumulated kamma .
SarathW
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:48 am What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?


:thanks:
This is a good question.
Can consciousness arise without Rupa?
There should be objects and the subject to arise consiouness.
My guess is they also have the same five aggregate like us but very subtle than the Rupa (earth, water, fire, and air) hence they are called Arupa (formless)
The object for them is the space and Consciousness itself.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
chownah
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by chownah »

asahi wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 am By Henepola Gunaratana :
Beyond the fine-material sphere lie the immaterial realms, which are four in number — the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. As should be evident, these are realms of rebirth for those who, without having broken the fetters that bind them to samsara, achieve and master one or another of the four immaterial jhanas. Those meditators who have mastery over a formless attainment at the time of death take rebirth in the appropriate plane, where they abide until the kammic force of the jhana is exhausted. Then they pass away, to take rebirth in some other realm as determined by their accumulated kamma .
"As should be evident" is not a reference to any sutta....or anything else other than personal view.
I would say, then, that as should be evident the quote above is just someone's personal view and nothing else.
chownah
pegembara
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by pegembara »

chownah wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:05 pm
asahi wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 am By Henepola Gunaratana :
Beyond the fine-material sphere lie the immaterial realms, which are four in number — the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. As should be evident, these are realms of rebirth for those who, without having broken the fetters that bind them to samsara, achieve and master one or another of the four immaterial jhanas. Those meditators who have mastery over a formless attainment at the time of death take rebirth in the appropriate plane, where they abide until the kammic force of the jhana is exhausted. Then they pass away, to take rebirth in some other realm as determined by their accumulated kamma .
"As should be evident" is not a reference to any sutta....or anything else other than personal view.
I would say, then, that as should be evident the quote above is just someone's personal view and nothing else.
chownah
:goodpost:

Anyway, shouldn't we be more concerned with what is happening around us rather than what is not happening around us?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
asahi
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

chownah wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:05 pm
asahi wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 am By Henepola Gunaratana :
Beyond the fine-material sphere lie the immaterial realms, which are four in number — the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. As should be evident, these are realms of rebirth for those who, without having broken the fetters that bind them to samsara, achieve and master one or another of the four immaterial jhanas. Those meditators who have mastery over a formless attainment at the time of death take rebirth in the appropriate plane, where they abide until the kammic force of the jhana is exhausted. Then they pass away, to take rebirth in some other realm as determined by their accumulated kamma .
"As should be evident" is not a reference to any sutta....or anything else other than personal view.
I would say, then, that as should be evident the quote above is just someone's personal view and nothing else.
chownah

I get this answer from another forum whom are kind . Here is the sutta , therefore should be sufficient enough as a convincing evident .


Guaranteed
Apaṇṇakasutta
MN 60

Bhikkhu Bodhi
English 2009
Since there actually is another world, one who holds the view ‘there is no other world’ has wrong view. Since there actually is another world, one who intends ‘there is no other world’ has wrong intention. Since there actually is another world, one who makes the statement ‘there is no other world’ has wrong speech. Since there actually is another world, one who says ‘there is no other world’ is opposed to those arahants who know the other world. Since there actually is another world, one who convinces another ‘there is no other world’ convinces him to accept an untrue Dhamma; and because he convinces another to accept an untrue Dhamma, he praises himself and disparages others. Thus any pure virtue that he formerly had is abandoned and corrupt conduct is substituted. And this wrong view, wrong intention, wrong speech, opposition to noble ones, convincing another to accept an untrue Dhamma, and self-praise and disparagement of othersthese several evil unwholesome states thus come into being with wrong view as their condition.

Since there actually is another world, one who holds the view ‘there is another world’ has right view. Since there actually is another world, one who intends ‘there is another world’ has right intention. Since there actually is another world, one who makes the statement ‘there is another world’ has right speech. Since there actually is another world, one who says ‘there is another world’ is not opposed to those arahants who know the other world. Since there actually is another world, one who convinces another ‘there is another world’ convinces him to accept true Dhamma; and because he convinces another to accept true Dhamma, he does not praise himself and disparage others. Thus any corrupt conduct that he formerly had is abandoned and pure virtue is substituted. And this right view, right intention, right speech, non-opposition to noble ones, convincing another to accept true Dhamma, and avoidance of self-praise and disparagement of others—these several wholesome states thus come into being with right view as their condition.

There Are no Immaterial Realms

“Householders, there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine and view is this: ‘There are definitely no immaterial realms.’

If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me. Now as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are no immaterial realms,” if their word is true then it is certainly still possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the fine-material realms who consist of mind. But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are immaterial realms,” if their word is true then it is certainly possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception.
:focus: please


pegembara wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:10 am Anyway, shouldn't we be more concerned with what is happening around us rather than what is not happening around us?
Btw , if by saying learning and studying sutta / dhamma is something not our concern and not happens around us and here then what it is ?

:rolleye:
chownah
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by chownah »

asahi wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:35 am :focus: please
Right, the topic is:
What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?
My point is that there is nothing that I have seen here or elsewhere that indicates that the dimensions you mention have beings inhabiting them individually or in aggregate (whatever that might be).....I think that you should estabish some evidence that there are beings inhabiting those dimensions first before wanting to know about their aggregates.....to ask about their aggregates is like asking about the aggregates of something that does not exist......unless you can bring something which talks about them as existing.....
chownah
asahi
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

chownah wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:26 am
asahi wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:35 am :focus: please
Right, the topic is:
What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?
My point is that there is nothing that I have seen here or elsewhere that indicates that the dimensions you mention have beings inhabiting them individually or in aggregate (whatever that might be).....I think that you should estabish some evidence that there are beings inhabiting those dimensions first before wanting to know about their aggregates.....to ask about their aggregates is like asking about the aggregates of something that does not exist......unless you can bring something which talks about them as existing.....
chownah
Did you read the above sutta ?
I read that in the sutta the Buddha affirms that there are formless beings exists .
And are you saying that in this sutta the Buddha saids they are no formless beings ?
So , if you are in the view they are no formless beings , and that no suttas ever prove so , then , this is where we depart from here .
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are immaterial realms,” if their word is true then it is certainly possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception.
pegembara
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by pegembara »

asahi wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:35 am
pegembara wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:10 am Anyway, shouldn't we be more concerned with what is happening around us rather than what is not happening around us?
Btw , if by saying learning and studying sutta / dhamma is something not our concern and not happens around us and here then what it is ?

:rolleye:
Better to ask if there is life on another planet. How is that going to help you other than to satisfy your curiosity? BTW there is a high likelihood that there is life other here on Earth.

Being ethical and moral helps but doesn't solve the fundamental problem. Nearly all religions wold say the same things. Some promise heaven after death. That is not Buddhism since it is not verifiable. Please note that I am not refuting that there are things that may well be unseen.

How is it going to help you face aging, sickness, and death? Loss of loved ones?

Here is a sutta that should be of concern to us. Freedom from aging, sickness, and death is a loftier goal!
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"I, too, monks, before my Awakening, when I was an unawakened bodhisatta, being subject myself to birth, sought what was likewise subject to birth. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, I sought [happiness in] what was likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement. The thought occurred to me, 'Why do I, being subject myself to birth, seek what is likewise subject to birth? Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, why do I seek what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement? What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding? What if I, being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, were to seek the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less,, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
More to the point.
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Wed May 12, 2021 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
chownah
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by chownah »

asahi wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:32 am
chownah wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:26 am
asahi wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:35 am :focus: please
Right, the topic is:
What would be the aggregates of the beings if they are in the dimension of infinite space , dimension of infinite consciousness , dimension of infinite nothingness , dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and dimension of cessation of feeling perception ?
My point is that there is nothing that I have seen here or elsewhere that indicates that the dimensions you mention have beings inhabiting them individually or in aggregate (whatever that might be).....I think that you should estabish some evidence that there are beings inhabiting those dimensions first before wanting to know about their aggregates.....to ask about their aggregates is like asking about the aggregates of something that does not exist......unless you can bring something which talks about them as existing.....
chownah
Did you read the above sutta ?
I read that in the sutta the Buddha affirms that there are formless beings exists .
And are you saying that in this sutta the Buddha saids they are no formless beings ?
So , if you are in the view they are no formless beings , and that no suttas ever prove so , then , this is where we depart from here .
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are immaterial realms,” if their word is true then it is certainly possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception.
I did read them and I'm wondering if you understand them.....the first sutta talks about "another world" but it doesn't say anything about what that "another world" actually is....it does not say that this "another world" is one or a combination of the dimensions you want to discuss so what it says can not be seen to apply to those dimensions....if you think that "another world" actually does mean those dimensions then please bring a sutta reference saying this or else please say that it is just your view.

The second sutta is just talking about "IF" someone holds a view about "immaterial realms" and "IF" their views are true what would be one possibility.....it doesn't say anything about if their view is correct or not. It does indicate that there is a "fine material realm" but it doesn't say that the dimensions you want to discuss have anything to do with that "fine material realm".....and.....with the "immaterial realm" (something whose existence is not affirmed in the sutta reference) it does not indicate that the "immaterial realm" has anything to do with the dimensions you wish to discuss.

It seems that you are bringing references which do not seem to have anything to do with the dimensions you want to discuss. If you want to discuss the aggregates of beings inhabiting the dimensions you mention then please bring somthing which indicates that there are in fact beings inhabiting those dimentions.
chownah
chownah
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by chownah »

Here is something which I think is relevant to your question about the dimensions.....it is from DN15https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-2
Seven Stations of Consciousness
"Ananda, there are these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres. Which seven?

"There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness. [2]

"There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

"There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

"The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. [These are the two spheres.]

"Now, as for the first station of consciousness — beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms: If one discerns that [station of consciousness], discerns its origination, discerns its passing away, discerns its allure, discerns its drawbacks, discerns the escape from it, would it be proper, by means of that [discernment] to take delight there?"

"No, lord."

(Similarly with each of the remaining stations of consciousness and two spheres.)

"Ananda, when knowing — as they actually are — the origination, passing away, allure, drawbacks of — and escape from — these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres, a monk is released through lack of clinging, he is said to be a monk released through discernment.

Eight Emancipations
"Ananda, there are these eight emancipations. Which eight?

"Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation.

"Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation.

"One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' one enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, one enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation.

"Now, when a monk attains these eight emancipations in forward order, in reverse order, in forward and reverse order, when he attains them and emerges from them wherever he wants, however he wants, and for as long as he wants, when through the ending of the mental fermentations he enters and remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having directly known it and realized it in the here and now, he is said to be a monk released in both ways. And as for another release in both ways, higher or more sublime than this, there is none."
chownah
asahi
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

pegembara wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:45 am
Better to ask if there is life on another planet. How is that going to help you other than to satisfy your curiosity? BTW there is a high likelihood that there is life other here on Earth.

Being ethical and moral helps but doesn't solve the fundamental problem. Nearly all religions wold say the same things. Some promise heaven after death. That is not Buddhism since it is not verifiable. Please note that I am not refuting that there are things that may well be unseen.

How is it going to help you face aging, sickness, and death? Loss of loved ones?

Here is a sutta that should be of concern to us. Freedom from aging, sickness, and death is a loftier goal!

Better i ask someone else that maybe can help answer my question and end of story .
Studying the sutta is part of the process of learning dhamma . So if you think my question not worth answering just dont answer . Sarathw says it is a good question . And in this process of learning it seems this is a matter of different opinions that you think the question dont worth asking . How do you know i am not concern or dont know how to face aging sickness and death ? :shrug:

:focus: :ugeek:
asahi
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Re: Formless aggregates

Post by asahi »

chownah wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:57 am
But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are immaterial realms,” if their word is true then it is certainly possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception.

I did read them and I'm wondering if you understand them.....the first sutta talks about "another world" but it doesn't say anything about what that "another world" actually is....it does not say that this "another world" is one or a combination of the dimensions you want to discuss so what it says can not be seen to apply to those dimensions....if you think that "another world" actually does mean those dimensions then please bring a sutta reference saying this or else please say that it is just your view.

The second sutta is just talking about "IF" someone holds a view about "immaterial realms" and "IF" their views are true what would be one possibility.....it doesn't say anything about if their view is correct or not. It does indicate that there is a "fine material realm" but it doesn't say that the dimensions you want to discuss have anything to do with that "fine material realm".....and.....with the "immaterial realm" (something whose existence is not affirmed in the sutta reference) it does not indicate that the "immaterial realm" has anything to do with the dimensions you wish to discuss.

It seems that you are bringing references which do not seem to have anything to do with the dimensions you want to discuss. If you want to discuss the aggregates of beings inhabiting the dimensions you mention then please bring somthing which indicates that there are in fact beings inhabiting those dimentions.
chownah
I am not good at searching for suttas . It is just happens i dont find a suitable one .
In the beginning you are asking which sutta saids there are formless beings living in the formless realms , so i try to search for one sutta that mentioned of such thing . DN15 is just one of the sutta mention there exists formless realms with its respective beings which you wanted not me . I just cant find one immediately as i am not familiar .
It seems you didnt read MN60 properly .
The sutta i posted actually is 1 not 2 suttas as you saids . I divided it into 2 part for your convenient of reading .
Below is the part following the part i quoted above . So , according to the Buddha a sensible person would think like this :
Unless my reading is way off very much wrong , i read that although the sutta says
"if" but the meaning are , i would presume there are such thing as formless realms with its beings and also there is such thing as cessation of bhava .
A sensible person reflects on this matter in this way: ‘Some ascetics and brahmins say that there is no such thing as the total cessation of future lives, but I have not seen that. Some ascetics and brahmins say that there is such a thing as the total cessation of future lives, but I have not known that. Without knowing or seeing, it would not be appropriate for me to take one side and declare, ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’ If those ascetics and brahmins who say that there is no such thing as the total cessation of future lives are correct, it is possible that I will be guaranteed rebirth among the gods who are formless and made of perception. If those ascetics and brahmins who say that there is such a thing as the total cessation of future lives are correct, it is possible that I will be extinguished in the present life.
The view of those ascetics and brahmins who say that there is no such thing as the total cessation of future lives is close to greed, approving, attachment, and grasping. The view of those ascetics and brahmins who say that there is such a thing as the total cessation of future lives is close to non-greed, non-approving, non-attachment, and non-grasping.’ Reflecting like this, they simply practice for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding future lives.

The way i see it is , you just dont have sincerity in answering the question in the beginning . Assuming you have been learning dhammas and studying suttas for many years and i assume you know better than me , then surely you know the kama loka , rupa loka and arupa loka all have living beings in respective realms . The problem is you are creating difficulty for me to find a specific sutta just to indicate that the Buddha did said so in proving the existence of formless beings .


AN 3.76
Bhava Sutta


"If there were no kamma ripening in the formless-property, would formless-becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming."

Ps .
1. Would it be a good kamma to cause difficulty for those who wants to learn some dhamma ?

2. For this topic unless there is someone else can helps , i will not waste more time with someone not really helping .

Regards

:anjali:
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