Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:54 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:01 am
form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:15 am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta

In Cullavagga section VII of the Vinayapiṭaka of the Theravādins which deals with schisms, it is told how Devadatta went forth along with a number of the Buddha's other relatives and clansmen.[9] In the first year he attained psychic power, but made no supermundane achievement.

Looking round to see whom he could convince to honour him he decided to approach Prince Ajātasattu, the heir to the Magadhan throne. Having psychic power he assumed the form of a young boy clad in snakes and sat in the Prince's lap, which very much impressed the prince, who became his disciple.
So there isn't a sutta describing what you stated.

As for AN 9.26 (did you read it?)... it clearly shows Devadatta teaching correctly. The story in the Cullavagga is extremely suspect (Therevada is the only branch that has it) and the two suttas you mention just don't tally. Your claim re the four jhanas is not really substantiated.
The details of the story I told u, should be from cullavagga.

I just checked the note on the part u said Devadetta was teaching correctly. The note said perhaps that was a time when Devadetta still has not fallen yet.
To be honest... none of the Devatta story makes sense... possibly a later development. One minute he's praised by the General of Dhamma and the next he's worse than Satan... not very believable.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:21 am
form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:54 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:01 am

So there isn't a sutta describing what you stated.

As for AN 9.26 (did you read it?)... it clearly shows Devadatta teaching correctly. The story in the Cullavagga is extremely suspect (Therevada is the only branch that has it) and the two suttas you mention just don't tally. Your claim re the four jhanas is not really substantiated.
The details of the story I told u, should be from cullavagga.

I just checked the note on the part u said Devadetta was teaching correctly. The note said perhaps that was a time when Devadetta still has not fallen yet.
To be honest... none of the Devatta story makes sense... possibly a later development. One minute he's praised by the General of Dhamma and the next he's worse than Satan... not very believable.
I understand your concern. We will probably never know what has been twisted in the nikaya. I have since learned to focus on the practice rather than what I think are discrepancies in the nikaya. The core of the teaching I think is reliable especially after putting them to practice and routinely review them. For example, if I did not keep to wholesome actions, sooner or later my meditation will not be good.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:39 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:21 am
form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:54 am

The details of the story I told u, ...
To be honest...
I understand your concern. We will probably never know what has been twisted in the nikaya. I have since learned to focus on the practice rather than what I think are discrepancies in the nikaya. The core of the teaching I think is reliable especially after putting them to practice and routinely review them. For example, if I did not keep to wholesome actions, sooner or later my meditation will not be good.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 am Where does the Buddha say he learnt 'jhana' from the previous teachers?

They taught 'spheres' of perception which do not necessarily need the four jhanas as a prequel.

As far as the Suttas are concerned, the four jhanas are only ever presented as a teaching from the Buddha.

Spheres of perception and concentrations are a different matter.
In DN1 there are other ascetics who knew and practiced the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
It is good to make it clear that DN1 is not only talking about Contemplatives and Brahmins from the time of the Buddha.
“In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions], he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) ‘Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.’ Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi
For example, there are Contemplatives and Brahmins who lived at the time of Buddha Kassapa.

and just as the Dhamma taught by Buddha Kassapa was not present when the Buddha of the present age was learning to meditate before his Enlightenment.

The Teachings of these Contemplatives and Brahmins mentioned in DN1 also did not exist at the time of the current Buddha.
“In the first case, bhikkhus, some recluse or a brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated, [purified, clarified, unblemished, devoid of corruptions], he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects) one birth, two, three, four, or five births; ten, twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty births; a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand births; many hundreds of births, many thousands of births, many hundreds of thousands of births. (He recalls:) ‘Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.’ Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi
“Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects his past lives throughout) one aeon of world-contraction and expansion, throughout two, three, four, five, or ten aeons of world-contraction and expansion. (He recalls:) ‘Then I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance; such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my span of life. Passing away thence, I re-arose here.’ Thus he recollects his numerous past lives in their modes and their details.
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi
In addition to the Contemplatives and Brahmins mentioned in DN1, they are from other times.

They can also be from other Cosmic Cycles ... (other universes ?!)

The DN1 Brahmajālasutta, The Prime Net, it is a very vast Sutta that encompasses all of Existence, all of Samsara.

So we have to be careful to mention DN1 as an example that the Buddha learned to meditate with the Contemplatives and Brahmins mentioned in this Sutta.

:namaste:
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