Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
ToVincent
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by ToVincent »

A little reminder for the "perfected annihilationists":

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=39503&p=619613#p619613
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 amIf we're playing the conjecture game... doesn't it seem implausible that the Bodhisattva was ignorant of the four jhanas while he was spending his years striving... only to connect with them from a memory as a child?
It is you who plays a conjecture game here when you say that, not your interlocutor. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Buddha while still a bodhisattva didn't know about jhāna. Luckily, it seems that the only people who believe that are those foolish enough to think that the Buddha invented jhāna in the face of all evidence to the contrary. That level of ignorance must be in part willful on the part of those who entertain such eccentric theories.
Bluster... there is no 'evidence'.

The idea that the Buddha would never have practiced or heard of the four jhanas if they were apparently widespread (according to you) is ridiculous. The four jhanas as presented in the suttas are obviously an innovation of the Buddha himself.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:19 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 am

You didn't say 'following on'... but you definitely implied that others had established foundations of sila and samadhi that the Buddha 'added to'.

I don't see how your sutta references are actually relevant.
It seems the Buddha perfected the annihilationist project by removing its one defect. There wasn’t ever a self there to annihilate to begin with.
Ahh... so the Buddha was merely 'following on'... a reformer... got it.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Coëmgenu »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 amIf we're playing the conjecture game... doesn't it seem implausible that the Bodhisattva was ignorant of the four jhanas while he was spending his years striving... only to connect with them from a memory as a child?
It is you who plays a conjecture game here when you say that, not your interlocutor. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Buddha while still a bodhisattva didn't know about jhāna. Luckily, it seems that the only people who believe that are those foolish enough to think that the Buddha invented jhāna in the face of all evidence to the contrary. That level of ignorance must be in part willful on the part of those who entertain such eccentric theories.
Bluster... there is no 'evidence'.

The idea that the Buddha would never have practiced or heard of the four jhanas if they were apparently widespread (according to you) is ridiculous. The four jhanas as presented in the suttas are obviously an innovation of the Buddha himself.
Strikes me as trite nonsense.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:19 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 am

You didn't say 'following on'... but you definitely implied that others had established foundations of sila and samadhi that the Buddha 'added to'.

I don't see how your sutta references are actually relevant.
It seems the Buddha perfected the annihilationist project by removing its one defect. There wasn’t ever a self there to annihilate to begin with.
Ahh... so the Buddha was merely 'following on'... a reformer... got it.
Annihilationism is the best of the best of outsider teachings as it was so, so close to non-clinging. The notion of a self was what stood in the way.

Regarding Alara & Uddakka the Buddha sought them out first, implying they were so close to non-clinging. The way to abandon craving for sense objects is via Jhana. Alara & Uddaka must have been without that desire. It follows that they likely knew the Jhana, but instead of letting go they desired non-existence (of the self) in the formless presumably on the basis of seeing even the Jhana are unsatisfactory and not-self.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu May 13, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 amIf we're playing the conjecture game... doesn't it seem implausible that the Bodhisattva was ignorant of the four jhanas while he was spending his years striving... only to connect with them from a memory as a child?
It is you who plays a conjecture game here when you say that, not your interlocutor. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Buddha while still a bodhisattva didn't know about jhāna. Luckily, it seems that the only people who believe that are those foolish enough to think that the Buddha invented jhāna in the face of all evidence to the contrary. That level of ignorance must be in part willful on the part of those who entertain such eccentric theories.
Bluster... there is no 'evidence'.

The idea that the Buddha would never have practiced or heard of the four jhanas if they were apparently widespread (according to you) is ridiculous. The four jhanas as presented in the suttas are obviously an innovation of the Buddha himself.
That claim is never made.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
skandha
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by skandha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 amIf we're playing the conjecture game... doesn't it seem implausible that the Bodhisattva was ignorant of the four jhanas while he was spending his years striving... only to connect with them from a memory as a child?
It is you who plays a conjecture game here when you say that, not your interlocutor. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Buddha while still a bodhisattva didn't know about jhāna. Luckily, it seems that the only people who believe that are those foolish enough to think that the Buddha invented jhāna in the face of all evidence to the contrary. That level of ignorance must be in part willful on the part of those who entertain such eccentric theories.
The bodhisattva is very likely to be aware of the jhana practices in vogue during the years he was striving for awakening and he probably practiced and excelled in many of these practices. Although, certainly the jhana that he practiced as a child must be special and unique, for him to remark it as being a breakthrough in his search for awakening, upon memory of it. It seems he has not been in contact with that jhanic state since childhood. Of course the process of breath meditation, seclusion, one pointedness, joy etc., are all well known by many contemplatives at that time, rather it is a certain special attitude in how he practiced these contemplative exercises as a child that was unique. It is from this perspective that I say that the Buddha discovered jhana (the Buddhist jhana), just like the other sages of that time discovered jhana according to their own tradition. Breath meditation is common to many traditions, but the attitude and reason behind the practice is different. The word jhana is used in many different context in the suttas and in some context we cannot say that the Buddha discovered these jhanas. The jhana within the 8 Fold Path that is discovered by the Buddha and that which I like to think is unique, is described in this verse;
There’s no jhāna for one without wisdom;
No wisdom for one without jhāna.
But for one with both jhāna and wisdom,
Nibbana truly is near.

— The Buddha, Dhammapada 372
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

skandha wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:16 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:22 amIf we're playing the conjecture game... doesn't it seem implausible that the Bodhisattva was ignorant of the four jhanas while he was spending his years striving... only to connect with them from a memory as a child?
It is you who plays a conjecture game here when you say that, not your interlocutor. It would be ridiculous to suggest that the Buddha while still a bodhisattva didn't know about jhāna. Luckily, it seems that the only people who believe that are those foolish enough to think that the Buddha invented jhāna in the face of all evidence to the contrary. That level of ignorance must be in part willful on the part of those who entertain such eccentric theories.
The bodhisattva is very likely to be aware of the jhana practices in vogue during the years he was striving for awakening and he probably practiced and excelled in many of these practices. Although, certainly the jhana that he practiced as a child must be special and unique, for him to remark it as being a breakthrough in his search for awakening, upon memory of it. It seems he has not been in contact with that jhanic state since childhood. Of course the process of breath meditation, seclusion, one pointedness, joy etc., are all well known by many contemplatives at that time, rather it is a certain special attitude in how he practiced these contemplative exercises as a child that was unique. It is from this perspective that I say that the Buddha discovered jhana (the Buddhist jhana), just like the other sages of that time discovered jhana according to their own tradition. Breath meditation is common to many traditions, but the attitude and reason behind the practice is different. The word jhana is used in many different context in the suttas and in some context we cannot say that the Buddha discovered these jhanas. The jhana within the 8 Fold Path that is discovered by the Buddha and that which I like to think is unique, is described in this verse;
There’s no jhāna for one without wisdom;
No wisdom for one without jhāna.
But for one with both jhāna and wisdom,
Nibbana truly is near.

— The Buddha, Dhammapada 372
The dhammapada version I have, translate 372 as no concentration for one without wisdom. It did not use the word jhana.
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Zom »

Although, certainly the jhana that he practiced as a child must be special and unique, for him to remark it as being a breakthrough in his search for awakening, upon memory of it. It seems he has not been in contact with that jhanic state since childhood.
It was neither special nor unique. Just ordinary 1st jhana. And he recalled it because he tried every kind of spiritual path and desperately needed a clue. He considered his first meditative experience in this very life to be that clue (and so he, obviously, realized that Alara/Uddaka teachings were very good and leading close to nibbana - as later he saw Alara/Uddaka as the most potent "students" for arahantship among all other "candidates" - a huge piece of the story people always miss).
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Coëmgenu »

form wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:56 amThe dhammapada version I have, translate 372 as no concentration for one without wisdom. It did not use the word jhana.
The translator of the version you have translates "jhāna" as "concentration."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
form wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:56 amThe dhammapada version I have, translate 372 as no concentration for one without wisdom. It did not use the word jhana.
The translator of the version you have translates "jhāna" as "concentration."
If the word jhanas is interchangeable with concentration, the thread starter can argue his case as the Buddha inventory d the right concentration?
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by mikenz66 »

Jhāna is not an English word, and different translators translate it differently:
No absorption for one without wisdom,
Natthi jhānaṁ apaññassa,

no wisdom for one without absorption.
paññā natthi ajhāyato;

But one with absorption and wisdom
Yamhi jhānañca paññā ca,

is in the presence of quenching.
sa ve nibbānasantike.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp360-382/en/sujato
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form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

form wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:40 am
form wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:56 amThe dhammapada version I have, translate 372 as no concentration for one without wisdom. It did not use the word jhana.
The translator of the version you have translates "jhāna" as "concentration."
If the word jhanas is interchangeable with concentration, the thread starter can argue his case as the Buddha invention of the right concentration?
auto
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 am Where does the Buddha say he learnt 'jhana' from the previous teachers?

They taught 'spheres' of perception which do not necessarily need the four jhanas as a prequel.

As far as the Suttas are concerned, the four jhanas are only ever presented as a teaching from the Buddha.

Spheres of perception and concentrations are a different matter.
Whatever you discover by your own insight you can teach it as your own.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’
‘nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.
So kho ahaṁ, bhāradvāja, taṁ dhammaṁ analaṅkaritvā tasmā dhammā nibbijja apakkamiṁ.
Also notice as far as dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. It doesn't deny doing jhana nor quarantine that their pupils would reach the same height as the teachings would permit.
auto
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by auto »

Zom wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:29 am
Although, certainly the jhana that he practiced as a child must be special and unique, for him to remark it as being a breakthrough in his search for awakening, upon memory of it. It seems he has not been in contact with that jhanic state since childhood.
It was neither special nor unique. Just ordinary 1st jhana. And he recalled it because he tried every kind of spiritual path and desperately needed a clue. He considered his first meditative experience in this very life to be that clue (and so he, obviously, realized that Alara/Uddaka teachings were very good and leading close to nibbana - as later he saw Alara/Uddaka as the most potent "students" for arahantship among all other "candidates" - a huge piece of the story people always miss).
yes,
and perhaps he went away from practicing jhana because he was afraid of pleasure.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities?’
‘kiṁ nu kho ahaṁ tassa sukhassa bhāyāmi yaṁ taṁ sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehī’ti?
I thought,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘I’m not afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities.’
‘na kho ahaṁ tassa sukhassa bhāyāmi yaṁ taṁ sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehī’ti.
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