Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

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SilaSamadhi8
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Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

🙏

I assume they are for the simple fact that he did not change the name (Jhāna)?

Also, he (and all Sammasambuddhas) are born in a place/time where practices such as Dhyāna/Jhāna together with non-violence, brahmacharya, virtue are already existing so he simply borrowed those and taught them within the context/framework of the four noble truths so even though other ascetics of his time were attaining 8 Jhāna levels they weren't getting enlightened due to the wrong context: attachment to those experiences, attachments to views, in other words, true insight of the noble truths was missing (no true Pannā).

Also, I've heard that Buddhaghosa was a Vedas scholar before entering the Sangha so the meditation practices as he described in the Visudhimagga could be a sign that those practices were standard to Indian traditions of that time?


Metta to my Dhamma friends. 🙏
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

Where does the Buddha say he learnt 'jhana' from the previous teachers?

They taught 'spheres' of perception which do not necessarily need the four jhanas as a prequel.

As far as the Suttas are concerned, the four jhanas are only ever presented as a teaching from the Buddha.

Spheres of perception and concentrations are a different matter.
skandha
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by skandha »

The Buddha discovered jhana by himself, he did not learn it from his teachers. He learnt the formless sphere attainments from his teachers. Although he thought the formless attainments were useful and kept it within his system. However he modified these formless attainments so that it is attained based on the 4 jhanas as a foundation. Of course jhana as a general term for meditation is used before the Buddha. For instance he practiced the apanaka jhana, breath holding meditation before his awakening, which he abandoned and left out of his training system after awakening. So when I say the Buddha discovered jhana by himself, I mean the specific jhana within the Buddhist system, within the framework of the Noble 8 fold path, and not the general term, jhana, for meditative practices.

Upon his awakening initially, he regarded his teachers as foremost among those that can understand his dhamma quickly, if only they were shown the framework of the 4 noble truths and Noble 8 Fold Path (which includes the Buddhist jhanas). No wonder he thought highly of these formless attainments.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

skandha wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:23 am The Buddha discovered jhana by himself, he did not learn it from his teachers. He learnt the formless sphere attainments from his teachers. Although he thought the formless attainments were useful and kept it within his system. However he modified these formless attainments so that it is attained based on the 4 jhanas as a foundation. Of course jhana as a general term for meditation is used before the Buddha. For instance he practiced the apanaka jhana, breath holding meditation before his awakening, which he abandoned and left out of his training system after awakening. So when I say the Buddha discovered jhana by himself, I mean the specific jhana within the Buddhist system, within the framework of the Noble 8 fold path, and not the general term, jhana, for meditative practices.

Upon his awakening initially, he regarded his teachers as foremost among those that can understand his dhamma quickly, if only they were shown the framework of the 4 noble truths and Noble 8 Fold Path (which includes the Buddhist jhanas). No wonder he thought highly of these formless attainments.

Very concise answer thank you Skhanda.

But some doubts for me remain: if the buddha learned and practiced the Arupa Jhānas from his teacher Alara Kalama and Uddaka Rāmaputta and they don't lead to nibbāna then why did he teach them afterwards?

Also, if he invented the Rupa jhānas (given the fact he attained perfect enlightenment with 1st rupa jhāna under the bodhi tree) then why did he teach the Arupa Jhānas? And according to his own formula they can only be accessed on using the 4rth Rupa Jhāna as a basis no?

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form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

No. Jhanas are the same. It is just the level of insights that are different. There are suttas that describe doctrines of different teachers with different level of concentration, some higher level than others and with some are plain wrong. There are also suttas that describe virtuous people when they died will go to the good realms that they desire. Those that also meditate can do to realms higher than human. Since people from other sects that are virtuous can go to realms higher than human, it means jhanas are not exclusive to Buddhism. The sutta also said jhana is a tool, we control it and not it control us.
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by confusedlayman »

buddha attained enlightenment from emerging from 4th jhana I think after directing mind to stress origin cessation and way...

form jhana were given in upashinads and even vedas will have hymn im not sure.

it is the insight that aids stops rebirth....
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 am Where does the Buddha say he learnt 'jhana' from the previous teachers?

They taught 'spheres' of perception which do not necessarily need the four jhanas as a prequel.

As far as the Suttas are concerned, the four jhanas are only ever presented as a teaching from the Buddha.

Spheres of perception and concentrations are a different matter.
In DN1 there are other ascetics who knew and practiced the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm In DN1 there are other ascetics who know and practice the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
Furthermore, note that:
It’s not just Āḷāra Kālāma who has faith, ... energy, ... mindfulness, ... immersion, ... wisdom; I too have these things.
‘na kho āḷārasseva kālāmassa atthi saddhā,... vīriyaṁ... sati ... samādhi ... paññā ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
To me, the idea that everything that the Buddha did was completely different from everyone else would be very strange. Analogous to thinking that Einstein's breakthroughs 116 years ago meant that all that went before him was discarded, and his contemporaries were clueless. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Other, well-developed seekers could quickly learn from the Buddha, because they had well developed sila, samādhi, etc, just as other scientists could immediately appreciate what Einstein had worked out.

:heart:
Mike
SarathW
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by SarathW »

My understanding is what Buddha's discovery was Satipathana.
He learned Rupavacara and Arupavacara Jhana from other teachers.
There is an account of Buddha in Jhana when he was just a toddler.
Perhaps that must be his previous life experience.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm In DN1 there are other ascetics who know and practice the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
Furthermore, note that:
It’s not just Āḷāra Kālāma who has faith, ... energy, ... mindfulness, ... immersion, ... wisdom; I too have these things.
‘na kho āḷārasseva kālāmassa atthi saddhā,... vīriyaṁ... sati ... samādhi ... paññā ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
To me, the idea that everything that the Buddha did was completely different from everyone else would be very strange. Analogous to thinking that Einstein's breakthroughs 116 years ago meant that all that went before him was discarded, and his contemporaries were clueless. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Other, well-developed seekers could quickly learn from the Buddha, because they had well developed sila, samādhi, etc, just as other scientists could immediately appreciate what Einstein had worked out.

:heart:
Mike
The idea that the Buddha was just following on from others seems more unlikely.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 am Where does the Buddha say he learnt 'jhana' from the previous teachers?

They taught 'spheres' of perception which do not necessarily need the four jhanas as a prequel.

As far as the Suttas are concerned, the four jhanas are only ever presented as a teaching from the Buddha.

Spheres of perception and concentrations are a different matter.
In DN1 there are other ascetics who knew and practiced the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
Could you provide a quote?
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

The only argument is whether there is unwholesome concentration versus wholesome concentration. One v magga say yes. Another say no.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 pm In DN1 there are other ascetics who know and practice the 4 Jhanas (the ones at the end). There is also a sutta where Mahavira finds it hard to believe there can be Jhana without vitakka-vicara, which of course strongly implies he knows of (and so likely practiced) the 1st Jhana.
Furthermore, note that:
It’s not just Āḷāra Kālāma who has faith, ... energy, ... mindfulness, ... immersion, ... wisdom; I too have these things.
‘na kho āḷārasseva kālāmassa atthi saddhā,... vīriyaṁ... sati ... samādhi ... paññā ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
To me, the idea that everything that the Buddha did was completely different from everyone else would be very strange. Analogous to thinking that Einstein's breakthroughs 116 years ago meant that all that went before him was discarded, and his contemporaries were clueless. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Other, well-developed seekers could quickly learn from the Buddha, because they had well developed sila, samādhi, etc, just as other scientists could immediately appreciate what Einstein had worked out.

:heart:
Mike
Best reply I have read in a long time.
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by Zom »

The Buddha discovered jhana by himself, he did not learn it from his teachers.
Not really. He indeed entered the 1st jhana spontaneously in his childhood, however, many other ascetics mastered jhanas too (as several suttas mention). What he did though, is that he resystematized lowest 4 meditative attinments, introducing term "jhana" and strongly highlighting their connection to vedanas (4 types of feelings); this was very important for him because vedanas was the key insight for attaining Nibbana (for those who mastered them). It seems like Alara Kalama and Ramaputta used another terminology for lowest jhanas, as again several suttas hint. I wrote about it here.
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