Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

skandha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:37 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Perhaps someone who thinks that the Buddha's version of jhānas is unique could explain what the practical difference is. I don't recall anything in the canon that suggests that jhāna, in itself, provides the liberating wisdom that is special to the Buddha. Of course, it's essential, but so is sila, and I don't think anyone is arguing that sila was unique to the Buddha's teaching.

:heart:
Mike
Simple. Awareness/discernment in jhana as opposed to concentration meditation where 'one loses one's will' and is so oblivious to one's body that you can receive a good kicking and not know it. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with concentration practices but they're not the Buddha's jhanas.
I agree that there needs to be correct discernment as a background when pursuing concentration practices but there are also useful states where you are oblivious to your body senses, the direct experience of cessation, based on letting go and not skill in concentration. The Buddha practiced these states himself and in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha compared how his own level of oblivion to the sense of hearing while in absorption is of a higher degree than that of his teacher Alara Kalama.
I think it also shows that oblivion to the sense of hearing was not a byproduct of the first four jhanas but a much deeper concentration.
skandha
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by skandha »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:53 pm
skandha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:37 pm

Simple. Awareness/discernment in jhana as opposed to concentration meditation where 'one loses one's will' and is so oblivious to one's body that you can receive a good kicking and not know it. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with concentration practices but they're not the Buddha's jhanas.
I agree that there needs to be correct discernment as a background when pursuing concentration practices but there are also useful states where you are oblivious to your body senses, the direct experience of cessation, based on letting go and not skill in concentration. The Buddha practiced these states himself and in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha compared how his own level of oblivion to the sense of hearing while in absorption is of a higher degree than that of his teacher Alara Kalama.
I think it also shows that oblivion to the sense of hearing was not a byproduct of the first four jhanas but a much deeper concentration.
Yes, I do note that the sutta passages on this incident never mentions jhana and als the Buddha has never mentioned learning jhanas from his teachers, only that he has learned specifically the 2 formless attainments.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:56 pm As I understood Skandha, they were arguing that all of the jhānas "discovered" by the Buddha were different and unlike the jhānas practiced by other Samanas and the samana Brahmins. While this is a fine idea, it has no grounding IMO in scripture. Zom beat me to pointing out that it is an insertion of the reader to assert that the Buddha invented and/or (re)discovered a new kind of jhāna as a child and remembered it amidst austerities later in life.
Perhaps someone who thinks that the Buddha's version of jhānas is unique could explain what the practical difference is. I don't recall anything in the canon that suggests that jhāna, in itself, provides the liberating wisdom that is special to the Buddha. Of course, it's essential, but so is sila, and I don't think anyone is arguing that sila was unique to the Buddha's teaching.

:heart:
Mike
Since we are in this area and with many good opinions on this subject. I want to ask a question related to the characteristics of jhanas sequences.

Does the Buddha always need to sequentially move from jhana 1 to 4 if he want to activate jhana 4? Or he can just go to jhana 4?
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:56 pm As I understood Skandha, they were arguing that all of the jhānas "discovered" by the Buddha were different and unlike the jhānas practiced by other Samanas and the samana Brahmins. While this is a fine idea, it has no grounding IMO in scripture. Zom beat me to pointing out that it is an insertion of the reader to assert that the Buddha invented and/or (re)discovered a new kind of jhāna as a child and remembered it amidst austerities later in life.
Perhaps someone who thinks that the Buddha's version of jhānas is unique could explain what the practical difference is. I don't recall anything in the canon that suggests that jhāna, in itself, provides the liberating wisdom that is special to the Buddha. Of course, it's essential, but so is sila, and I don't think anyone is arguing that sila was unique to the Buddha's teaching.

:heart:
Mike
I do not think his jhana is unique in a way that only his is authentic. But his jhanas is wholesome jhanas that need sila as a supporting condition. The unique thing in his teaching is the liberating insights.

Devatta once have jhanic ability also.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:40 am
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:56 pm As I understood Skandha, they were arguing that all of the jhānas "discovered" by the Buddha were different and unlike the jhānas practiced by other Samanas and the samana Brahmins. While this is a fine idea, it has no grounding IMO in scripture. Zom beat me to pointing out that it is an insertion of the reader to assert that the Buddha invented and/or (re)discovered a new kind of jhāna as a child and remembered it amidst austerities later in life.
Perhaps someone who thinks that the Buddha's version of jhānas is unique could explain what the practical difference is. I don't recall anything in the canon that suggests that jhāna, in itself, provides the liberating wisdom that is special to the Buddha. Of course, it's essential, but so is sila, and I don't think anyone is arguing that sila was unique to the Buddha's teaching.

:heart:
Mike
I do not think his jhana is unique in a way that only his is authentic. But his jhanas is wholesome jhanas that need sila as a supporting condition. The unique thing in his teaching is the liberating insights.

Devatta once have jhanic ability also.
Hi mike

Which sutta were Devatta's 'four jhanas' described?

I know it's mentioned somewhere that he had psychic powers (concentrations). There is even doubt that Devatta was the devil he was painted.

Btw which reading of MN 36 do you prefer? They definitely have different meanings.
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mikenz66
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:24 am Hi mike

Which sutta were Devatta's 'four jhanas' described?

I know it's mentioned somewhere that he had psychic powers (concentrations). There is even doubt that Devatta was the devil he was painted.
I guess you mean Hi form, as I didn't discuss that.
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:24 am Btw which reading of MN 36 do you prefer? They definitely have different meanings.
Can you explain the difference you see between The Thanissaro and the Bodhi/Sujato translation? I don't see them as different in meanings, just different choices of English words.

:heart:
Mike
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:51 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:33 pm Hi mike

Skandha has given a pretty good reply to your question and as for the sutta you quoted... I prefer this one...

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I haven't got BB's translation handy but I think from memory it is the same. I don't think BB has an agenda in his translations.
I don't see any significant difference between the translations: was/had/was (Sujato/Thanissaro/Bodhi). Obviously the immersion/concentration/whatever occurs before the insight. Whether one is still in jhāna during the insight is the point of contention of course. I wouldn't rely on translations to decide that, and my grasp of Pali is not up to adjudicating it.

PS, I'm not sure why you refer to ATI for Ven Thanissaro's translations, rather than dhammatalks.org: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN36.html

:heart:
Mike
Sorry 😣 my mistake.

The difference is in the 'tense'...

"When my mind had immersed in samādhi..." as opposed to....

"When the mind was thus concentrated..."

One is trying like to mad to hint that one emerges from jhana the other isn't.

As for ATI... old habits... does it matter too much?
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:24 am
form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:40 am
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 pm
Perhaps someone who thinks that the Buddha's version of jhānas is unique could explain what the practical difference is. I don't recall anything in the canon that suggests that jhāna, in itself, provides the liberating wisdom that is special to the Buddha. Of course, it's essential, but so is sila, and I don't think anyone is arguing that sila was unique to the Buddha's teaching.

:heart:
Mike
I do not think his jhana is unique in a way that only his is authentic. But his jhanas is wholesome jhanas that need sila as a supporting condition. The unique thing in his teaching is the liberating insights.

Devatta once have jhanic ability also.
Hi mike

Which sutta were Devatta's 'four jhanas' described?

I know it's mentioned somewhere that he had psychic powers (concentrations). There is even doubt that Devatta was the devil he was painted.

Btw which reading of MN 36 do you prefer? They definitely have different meanings.
In the sutta, Devatta's ability to transform into the appearance of a boy to impressed the son of the king is only possible with the fourth jhana. There is no descriptions in the sutta on how he meditate. However, at that time he was learning under the Buddha.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

Jhana= one pointedness. It differs only in terms of intensity and duration. And insights can only come together with wholesome states. This will be the right concentration.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi Form

Which sutta is this? I honestly can't recall reading one like that.

I've never come across the jhanas as giving people the ability to transform into a different being... maybe 'concentration' practices give this ability... if it really is in the suttas that is and not mere myth.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:52 am Hi Form

Which sutta is this? I honestly can't recall reading one like that.

I've never come across the jhanas as giving people the ability to transform into a different being... maybe 'concentration' practices give this ability... if it really is in the suttas that is and not mere myth.
I will find it for u. Should be together with the account where he created a mutiny and challenge the Buddha on a few rules like monks need to go vegetarian.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:52 am Hi Form

Which sutta is this? I honestly can't recall reading one like that.

I've never come across the jhanas as giving people the ability to transform into a different being... maybe 'concentration' practices give this ability... if it really is in the suttas that is and not mere myth.
AN Book of five, sutta 100(10), book of nine 26(6).
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta

In Cullavagga section VII of the Vinayapiṭaka of the Theravādins which deals with schisms, it is told how Devadatta went forth along with a number of the Buddha's other relatives and clansmen.[9] In the first year he attained psychic power, but made no supermundane achievement.

Looking round to see whom he could convince to honour him he decided to approach Prince Ajātasattu, the heir to the Magadhan throne. Having psychic power he assumed the form of a young boy clad in snakes and sat in the Prince's lap, which very much impressed the prince, who became his disciple.
BrokenBones
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by BrokenBones »

form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:15 am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta

In Cullavagga section VII of the Vinayapiṭaka of the Theravādins which deals with schisms, it is told how Devadatta went forth along with a number of the Buddha's other relatives and clansmen.[9] In the first year he attained psychic power, but made no supermundane achievement.

Looking round to see whom he could convince to honour him he decided to approach Prince Ajātasattu, the heir to the Magadhan throne. Having psychic power he assumed the form of a young boy clad in snakes and sat in the Prince's lap, which very much impressed the prince, who became his disciple.
So there isn't a sutta describing what you stated.

As for AN 9.26 (did you read it?)... it clearly shows Devadatta teaching correctly. The story in the Cullavagga is extremely suspect (Therevada is the only branch that has it) and the two suttas you mention just don't tally. Your claim re the four jhanas is not really substantiated.
form
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Re: Are the Jhānas the Buddha learned from his teachers before enlightenment the same as the ones he taught after it?

Post by form »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:01 am
form wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:15 am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta

In Cullavagga section VII of the Vinayapiṭaka of the Theravādins which deals with schisms, it is told how Devadatta went forth along with a number of the Buddha's other relatives and clansmen.[9] In the first year he attained psychic power, but made no supermundane achievement.

Looking round to see whom he could convince to honour him he decided to approach Prince Ajātasattu, the heir to the Magadhan throne. Having psychic power he assumed the form of a young boy clad in snakes and sat in the Prince's lap, which very much impressed the prince, who became his disciple.
So there isn't a sutta describing what you stated.

As for AN 9.26 (did you read it?)... it clearly shows Devadatta teaching correctly. The story in the Cullavagga is extremely suspect (Therevada is the only branch that has it) and the two suttas you mention just don't tally. Your claim re the four jhanas is not really substantiated.
The details of the story I told u, should be from cullavagga.

I just checked the note on the part u said Devadetta was teaching correctly. The note said perhaps that was a time when Devadetta still has not fallen yet.
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