(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

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(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by frank k »

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistT ... o_sn_4840/
(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40)
I extract the EBT sutra from the article "clarification... on dhyana", and also some of the main points from his detailed article. This is a short read, maybe 3 minutes:

(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40)


His excellent detailed research article can be found here:

clarification on feeling in buddhist dhyana compares the discrepancies between Pali and Agamas, 2005
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by BrokenBones »

Good article... I have read it before but it was nice to get a reminder to read it again.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

frank k wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:29 pm clarification on feeling in buddhist dhyana compares the discrepancies between Pali and Agamas, 2005
Peter Harvey answers to this article by Tse-Fu Kuan in his paper "The Four Jhānas and their Qualities in the Pali Tradition":
Feelings in the third and fourth jhānas

How, then, as we to see the sukha and somanassa mentioned in the fourth jhāna description? Is the somanassa abandoned some time prior to entering fourth jhāna, or is it the (mental) sukha that is abandoned in the process of entering the fourth jhāna? The Nikāyas see the way the various feeling are abandoned in the jhānas thus (Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta: SN V 213–16): 1) The pain faculty (dukkha indriya, i.e. physical pain) ceases in the first jhāna, 2) the unhappiness faculty (domanassa indriya i.e. mental pain) ceases in the second jhāna, 3) the pleasure faculty (sukha indriya, i.e. bodily pleasure) ceases in the third jhāna, and 4) the happiness faculty (somanassa indriya) then ceases in the fourth jhāna. Thus, in the fourth jhāna, only neutral feeling remains, the faculty of equanimity, as well as equanimity as an attitude of mind.

This means that the sukha in the third jhāna (e.g. DN I 75) must be that aspect of sukhā vedanā that is somanassa — happiness or mental pleasure, while it is lacking in the other aspect of sukhā vedanā — the ‘pleasure faculty’, sukha indriya, i.e. bodily pleasure, pleasure in some way related to the tactile sense. This implies that bodily pleasure may thus have existed in the first two jhānas, along with mental pleasure, or at least it may exist between jhāna 1 and 2, and on leaving 2: Dhs 160, 161 and 163 says that the somanassa but not sukha faculty exists in the first three jhānas. The commentary on SN V 213–16 (SN-a III 243) says, ‘The pleasure faculty is abandoned already in the access to the third jhāna, but it may arise when the body is touched by the sublime physical phenomena originating from joy (pīti-samuṭṭhāna-paṇīta-rūpa-phuṭṭha-kāyassa siyā uppatti).’ So, when one enters the third jhāna, both joy and physical pleasure fall away, but mental pleasure, happiness, remains, as a more subtle feeling.

Kuan (2005, 288) sees this as implausible as it is said that in the third jhāna the ‘body’ (kāya) is suffused with this sukha; but kāya is not used only to refer to the physical body,5 also covering the broader sense of ‘body’ as a ‘group’. At MN I 299, the term sakkāya, i.e. sat (existing) kāya is explained as the five upādāna-kkhandhas, i.e. the grasped-at processes of body and mind. At DN II 62, on the nāma-rūpa nidāna, talks of the ‘mind-group’ (nāma-kāya) and ‘form-group’ (rūpa-kāya), with SN II 3–4 explaining nāma as ‘feeling, perception, volition, sense contact and attention’. Moreover, it is said that one senses with the kāya in the formless states, which are beyond input from the five physical senses (AN IV 426–28, MN I 293, cf. MN I 477–479). Hence when Vibh 259, on ‘experiences sukha with the body (kāyena)’ in the third jhāna, explains kāya as the khandhas of perception, volitional activities and consciousness, this certainly plausible. What is meant is happiness spreading through the mentally experienced ‘body’.
https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/36750
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi Assaji... 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'.

The article you posted seems to sit neither in the hard jhana or sutta jhana camp.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by frank k »

Assaji wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:07 am ...
(quoting peter's article)
Kuan (2005, 288) sees this as implausible as it is said that in the third jhāna the ‘body’ (kāya) is suffused with this sukha; but kāya is not used only to refer to the physical body,5 also covering the broader sense of ‘body’ as a ‘group’. At MN I 299, the term sakkāya, i.e. sat (existing) kāya is explained as the five upādāna-kkhandhas, i.e. the grasped-at processes of body and mind. At DN II 62, on the nāma-rūpa nidāna, talks of the ‘mind-group’ (nāma-kāya) and ‘form-group’ (rūpa-kāya), with SN II 3–4 explaining nāma as ‘feeling, perception, volition, sense contact and attention’. Moreover, it is said that one senses with the kāya in the formless states, which are beyond input from the five physical senses (AN IV 426–28, MN I 293, cf. MN I 477–479). Hence when Vibh 259, on ‘experiences sukha with the body (kāyena)’ in the third jhāna, explains kāya as the khandhas of perception, volitional activities and consciousness, this certainly plausible. What is meant is happiness spreading through the mentally experienced ‘body’.
https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/36750
[/quote]

Assaji, do you agree with that?
In other words, how do you interpret 3rd jhana's "sukham ca kayena patisamvedeti"?
I've argued at length already, and shown many examples where the suttas, commentaries, Ab and Vism., when they are contrasting kaya and citta, they're obviously referring to the physical body in contrast to the mind, not a mental body which wouldn't contrast with the mind.

Peter is basically saying Ab Vb redefinition of kaya for third jhana is more authoritative than DN 2 for example, where both rupa and kaya are definitively shown in many cases to definitely be the meditator's physical body (4 jhana similes, the 4 elements meditation on rupa and kaya born of mother and father done with the imperturbable 4th jhana).

If the buddha wanted to say 3rd jhana's sukha felt with 'kaya' was mental, why didn't he just use a clear term like sukha somanassa, sukha cetasaka, or even nama-kayena? He expects the listeners to know the secret code for kaya in 3rd jhana (Ab Vb is 100 years later after the Buddha), but the kaya reverts back to a physical body kaya in 4th jhana, and the imperturbable version of 4th jhana?

Doesn't that sound insane to you?

Also, on Peter's 'kaya sakkhi" body witness argument, the same one Sujato uses to redefine 3rd jhana kaya, I looked at every single occurrence of those usages here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/sakkhi/index.html

Two big problems with that argument.
1. 4 jhanas is not the 9 vimokkha. So if you're making a statement about the 9 vimokkha being 'body witness metaphorically experiencing' something. Just like if I said the rock band of 4 members of the Beatles, and their wives, making 8 members, all live a life of fame and wealth, I can't reasonably deduce from that the 4 beatles just married into their money. Maybe their wives are rich billionaire heiresses, but more likely the 4 beatles made their fortune from their rock band product, in the millions, and it's the wives who got rich from that.
In other words, you can't deduce kaya in 4 jhanas must be mind only just because some statement made about 9 vimokkhas have to apply to all 9 members. Bad logic.

2. And you can't rule out the case that kaya being physical in the 9 vimokha and kaya phusitva in the simple explanation that one requires a healthy physical body to attain those 9 vimokkha.

3. As an interesting aside, look at the origin of body witness and touching with the body, exemplified in SN 12.68:
SN 12.68
SN 2, 1. nidānasaṃyuttaṃ, 7. mahāvaggo, 8. kosambisuttaṃ SN 12.68, para. 12 ⇒
Suppose there was a well on a desert road that had neither rope nor bucket.
Seyyathāpi, āvuso, kantāramagge udapāno, tatra nevassa rajju na udakavārako.
Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched.
Atha puriso āgaccheyya ghammābhitatto ghammapareto kilanto tasito pipāsito, so taṃ udapānaṃ olokeyya.
They’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it.
Tassa ‘udakan’ti hi kho ñāṇaṃ assa, na ca kāyena phusitvā vihareyya.
Those metaphorical expressions came about based on a physical body that's dying from heat and thirst so people can understand it clearly.

So in conclusion,
1. Peter treats Ab Vb as overriding earlier sutta definition of kaya, I think that's invalid.
2. Peter's kaya sakkhi and kayena phusitva argument is weak, 4 jhanas aren't even explicitly mentioned in 9 vimokkha, and the passages in AN 9 where kayena phusitva are applied to 9 attainments, 4 jhanas are not 9 attainments, you can't deduce something about 4j from a statement that needed to apply to all 9 members.
3. The Buddha would have to be insane to use a secret code for 3rd jhana kaya when he simply could have used plain language to indicate sukha was not physical.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by frank k »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:22 am Hi Assaji... 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'.

The article you posted seems to sit neither in the hard jhana or sutta jhana camp.
Peter is from the camp, and there are lots of Theravadin like this, that think Abhidhamma and suttas don't contradict each other (at least I've seen he believes that for the jhanas).

So they end up having to come up with seriously contorted reasonings to resolve all the contradictions.

One thing I learned from Tse Fu kuan's article, even after Abhidhamma and Abhidharma go through these contortions to make jhana mind only, they still end up with incoherence within their own respective abhidharmas!

In Theravada I think it was something like somanassa not being included in the mind moments of first two jhanas.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Something interesting: a lot of these fights are as old as multiple Buddhist schools. The Vaibhāṣikas and Sautrāntikas used to argue whether "kāyena" in the 3rd jhāna referred to the rūpakāya or nāmakāya. The Dharmaskandhapāda and Abhidharmakośakārikābhāṣya record these two different views:
As a result of detachment from prīti, he abides in equanimous, mindful and well aware. And he experiences that sukha through the body which the āryas declare, ‘equanimous and mindful is one abiding in dhyāna.

“Experiences sukha through the body” ― body here means the mental body (manaskāya), the body is said to experience sukha because, owing
to the sukhavedanā in the mental body, there comes to be ease in the body comprising the Great Elements; the sukha here is the physical and mental
softness and pliability, but it is sukha as a vedanā, not the sukha as praśrabdhi
(Dharmaskandha quoted in Methods of spiritual praxis in the Sarvāstivāda by Stephen Suen, p. 349-50)

What the Abhidharma calls the "manaskāya" here is analogous to what the Pāli Canon calls the "nāmakāya." Compare the above with the Sautrāntikas/Dārṣṭāntikas:
abhidharmakosavol4.1232.JPG
abhidharmakosavol4.1233.JPG
abhidharmakosavol4.1234.JPG
(Abhidharmakośakārikābhāṣya vol. 4 p. 1232-4, Pruden translation)

The debate continues beyond these three pages I can quote here. It's literally almost the exact same arguments, almost, but in the fourth century. Interestingly enough, the Sautrāntikas appear to subscribe to the theory that the mind is, among other things, modalities and/or manifestations of the internal wind element. Later (Mūla)Sarvāstivādins will take this and really run with it. This is why the internal winds can make a pleasant contact with the body in the third dhyāna according to them. The mind itself essentially is making contact with the body and that contact is born of āryasamādhi and therefore kuśala, according to them.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

Hi BrokenBones,
BrokenBones wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 9:22 am The article you posted seems to sit neither in the hard jhana or sutta jhana camp.
Well, there is more important distinction - where does a given method lead? How well it clears away defilements and develops the Enlightenment factors?
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

frank k wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:29 pm Assaji, do you agree with that?
I have not sorted it out yet. Thank you for a new perspective.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Assaji wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:07 am
frank k wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:29 pm clarification on feeling in buddhist dhyana compares the discrepancies between Pali and Agamas, 2005
Peter Harvey answers to this article by Tse-Fu Kuan in his paper "The Four Jhānas and their Qualities in the Pali Tradition":
Feelings in the third and fourth jhānas

How, then, as we to see the sukha and somanassa mentioned in the fourth jhāna description? Is the somanassa abandoned some time prior to entering fourth jhāna, or is it the (mental) sukha that is abandoned in the process of entering the fourth jhāna? The Nikāyas see the way the various feeling are abandoned in the jhānas thus (Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta: SN V 213–16): 1) The pain faculty (dukkha indriya, i.e. physical pain) ceases in the first jhāna, 2) the unhappiness faculty (domanassa indriya i.e. mental pain) ceases in the second jhāna, 3) the pleasure faculty (sukha indriya, i.e. bodily pleasure) ceases in the third jhāna, and 4) the happiness faculty (somanassa indriya) then ceases in the fourth jhāna. Thus, in the fourth jhāna, only neutral feeling remains, the faculty of equanimity, as well as equanimity as an attitude of mind.

This means that the sukha in the third jhāna (e.g. DN I 75) must be that aspect of sukhā vedanā that is somanassa — happiness or mental pleasure, while it is lacking in the other aspect of sukhā vedanā — the ‘pleasure faculty’, sukha indriya, i.e. bodily pleasure, pleasure in some way related to the tactile sense. This implies that bodily pleasure may thus have existed in the first two jhānas, along with mental pleasure, or at least it may exist between jhāna 1 and 2, and on leaving 2: Dhs 160, 161 and 163 says that the somanassa but not sukha faculty exists in the first three jhānas. The commentary on SN V 213–16 (SN-a III 243) says, ‘The pleasure faculty is abandoned already in the access to the third jhāna, but it may arise when the body is touched by the sublime physical phenomena originating from joy (pīti-samuṭṭhāna-paṇīta-rūpa-phuṭṭha-kāyassa siyā uppatti).’ So, when one enters the third jhāna, both joy and physical pleasure fall away, but mental pleasure, happiness, remains, as a more subtle feeling.

Kuan (2005, 288) sees this as implausible as it is said that in the third jhāna the ‘body’ (kāya) is suffused with this sukha; but kāya is not used only to refer to the physical body,5 also covering the broader sense of ‘body’ as a ‘group’. At MN I 299, the term sakkāya, i.e. sat (existing) kāya is explained as the five upādāna-kkhandhas, i.e. the grasped-at processes of body and mind. At DN II 62, on the nāma-rūpa nidāna, talks of the ‘mind-group’ (nāma-kāya) and ‘form-group’ (rūpa-kāya), with SN II 3–4 explaining nāma as ‘feeling, perception, volition, sense contact and attention’. Moreover, it is said that one senses with the kāya in the formless states, which are beyond input from the five physical senses (AN IV 426–28, MN I 293, cf. MN I 477–479). Hence when Vibh 259, on ‘experiences sukha with the body (kāyena)’ in the third jhāna, explains kāya as the khandhas of perception, volitional activities and consciousness, this certainly plausible. What is meant is happiness spreading through the mentally experienced ‘body’.
https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/36750
Hi Assaji,

From my own exploration of kaya in the suttas, it seems clear that when used on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) kaya almost always means physical body. The only exception to this I’ve seen is kayena being used idiomatically as “directly/viscerally/personally”. However, the instrumental usage of kayena also typically refers to the physical body (search digital pali reader for kayena). Note that every usage Harvey and others give to support the meaning of kaya as “group” are always compounds (also prefix + kaya examples are given) with the exception of kayena for the formless attainments. Can you find a single example of kaya on it’s own without prefixes, and not in a compound which means a “group/set/collection” besides this one instrumental usage?

If you cannot, and I doubt another exists because Harvey and others would cite it (and I’ve searched for it myself!), then you should agree that Harvey’s thesis here is considerably weakened and his only evidence that kaya by itself (not in a compound/with a prefix) means group is in the formless attainments when it’s used instrumentally-which seems more like the exception that proves the rule to me.

For the third jhana formula then, our first preference should be to translate kayena according to it's most common usage, unless context demands we use a different meaning. (That being said, even the context suggest kayena=with the body (not 'with the mental body') This context is found in the analysis of feeling faculties and their cessation if you agree with the aviparitaka sutra instead of the irregular order sutta/SN 48.40. Moreover, the analysis of Tse-Ke Fuan in my view clearly shows that we should prefer the aviparitaka sutra's account.)

Maybe, I'll make a catalogue of the different instrumental usages of kaya in the canon later this weekend. There are only around 500 hits, and many (I'd guess over half) are stock formulas (abhinna, salayatana, and jhana formula) so it probably wouldn't take that long.

In my view the compound usages of kaya likely work in the same way “body of water” works in english-by itself body is almost always the physical body, but with joined together with “of water” it takes the meaning of group.

Let me know what either of you (Frank/Assaji) think!
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

SN 48.40 shows no sign of corruption.

1st Jhāna = cessation of pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṁ).

2nd Jhāna = cessation of sadness-faculty (domanassindriyaṁ).

3rd Jhāna = cessation of pleasure-faculty (sukhindriyaṁ).

4th Jhāna = cessation of happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṁ)

Nirodha-samāpatti = cessation of equanimity-faculty (upekkhindriyaṁ).

The pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṁ) and the pleasure-faculty (sukhindriyaṁ) are experiential feelings (kāyikañca) whilst the sadness-faculty (domanassindriyaṁ) and the happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṁ) are the emotional reactions based on said experiences (cetasikañca). This refers to the two darts of SN 36.6. Here the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṁ) is abandoned due to the absence of 5 sense contact. Although kāyikañca also includes mental pain, this does not occur in the 1st Jhāna due to mental piti & sukha. We can now see how the dukkhindriyaṁ is abandoned in the 1st Jhāna. Regarding the sadness-faculty (domanassindriyaṁ) we see this crop up in MN 44:

Idhāvuso visākha, bhikkhu iti paṭisañcikkhati:
"‘kudāssu nāmāhaṁ tadāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharissāmi yadariyā etarahi āyatanaṁ upasampajja viharantī’ti?"
Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu pihaṁ upaṭṭhāpayato uppajjati pihāppaccayā domanassaṁ. Paṭighaṁ tena pajahati, na tattha paṭighānusayo anuseti.
And take a mendicant who reflects:
"‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’
Nursing such a longing for the supreme liberations gives rise to sadness due to longing. With this they give up repulsion, and the underlying tendency to repulsion does not lie within that.


Two things to notice. First, the sadness-faculty here comes after reflection (paṭisañcikkhati). Second, it is tied to longing. Given that vitakka-vicāra are intentions (MN 78), this places the reflection (paṭisañcikkhati) and so the experience of the sadness-faculty (domanassindriyaṁ) outside of Jhāna. Furthermore given that domanassindriyaṁ is related to longing it's easy to see how the 2nd Jhāna leads to it's cessation. Intentions are stilled in the 2nd Jhāna. We can now see how the domanassindriyaṁ is abandoned in the 2nd Jhāna. Next we have the pleasure-faculty (sukhindriyaṁ). Given that the pain-faculty (dukkhindriyaṁ) relates to the raw experience of painful vedanā, it would follow that sukhindriyaṁ here refers to the raw experience of pleasant vedanā. Since the dukkhindriyaṁ referred to pain at the 5 senses, and since all experiences of each indriya so far have been outside of Jhāna, we can read sukhindriyaṁ here as referring to the raw pleasant experience of the physical body post-Jhāna. Upon entry then into the 3rd Jhāna this is given up, since the 5 senses are left behind (again). Instead within the 3rd Jhāna there is "the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss". The sukha here is of equanimity. Here then we can see how the cessation of pleasure-faculty (sukhindriyaṁ) occurs in the 3rd Jhāna. Next we have the cessation of happiness-faculty (somanassindriyaṁ). MN 137 tells us that this is the renunciate happiness of having understood the impermanence etc of sense experience. This once again reminds us of paṭisañcikkhati which occurs outside of Jhāna, which in turn fits in nicely with all of the previous experiences of the indriya here having occurred outside of absorption. Upon entry into the 4th Jhāna this is given up. There is only then:

"...the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain."

This in turn ceases in nirodha-samāpatti. It seems the Aṭṭhakathā, the Abhidhamma and Ven. Buddhaghosa were right:
175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in one actually possessed of the third jhána there is no concern about feeling bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental body, and after emerging from the jhána he would also feel bliss since his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.48 It is in order to point to this meaning that the words “he feels bliss with his body” are said.

185. But when does the abandoning of these take place? At the moment of access of the four jhánas. For [mental] joy is only abandoned at the moment of the fourth-jhána access, while [bodily] pain, [mental] grief, and [bodily] bliss (pleasure) are abandoned respectively at the moments of access of the first, second, and third jhánas. So although the order in which they are abandoned is not actually mentioned, nevertheless the abandoning of the pleasure, pain, joy, and grief, is stated here according to the order in which the faculties are summarized in the Indriya Vibhaòga (Vibh 122).
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“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm
For the third jhana formula then, our first preference should be to translate kayena according to it's most common usage
Common usage according to the 21st Century, or according to Iron Age India? In the Upanishads "Ātman" can be either the True Self, referring to the experiencer of the world, or it can simply mean a physical body. Body here then can refer to one's inner world (the most inner of inner here) or it can refer to one's experience in the outer world, via the physical body. Is there any reason to doubt that this understanding wasn't common currency during the time of the Buddha, given how many other terms found in the Upanishads were also used by the Master?
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm The only exception to this I’ve seen is kayena being used idiomatically as “directly/viscerally/personally”.
āvuso, puggalā dullabhā lokasmiṃ, ye amataṃ dhātuṃ kāyena phusitvā viharanti.
Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
- AN 6.46

Kāyena is in the singular instrumental case. This means that kāya here is the means by which one touches the deathless element, which means nibbāna. Unless we are to believe that we literally run up and hug nibbāna, this obviously refers to mentally contacting the nibbāna element via the mind. Kāya then in this case does not mean "directly/viscerally/personally". It refers to an actual body which contacts nibbāna. Here then we have kāya meaning mental body without being part of a compound or with a prefix.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
waryoffolly
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:16 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm The only exception to this I’ve seen is kayena being used idiomatically as “directly/viscerally/personally”.
āvuso, puggalā dullabhā lokasmiṃ, ye amataṃ dhātuṃ kāyena phusitvā viharanti.
Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
- AN 6.46

Kāyena is in the singular instrumental case. This means that kāya here is the means by which one touches the deathless element, which means nibbāna. Unless we are to believe that we literally run up and hug nibbāna, this obviously refers to mentally contacting the nibbāna element via the mind. Kāya then in this case does not mean "directly/viscerally/personally". It refers to an actual body which contacts nibbāna. Here then we have kāya meaning mental body without being part of a compound or with a prefix.
Hi Ceisiwr,

Both Sylvester and Ajahn Sujato have no problem taking “kayena phusitva” to idiomatically mean “directly/personally”. Both have a better understanding of pali then either you (afaik) or I. Moreover, both subscribe to the “hard jhana” interpretation. See here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/to ... y/2353/11

You can also be fairly sure that if “kayena phusitva” could have meant “touching with mental body” that sylvester would’ve have brought this up in the “great jhana debate”. Afaik he doesn’t use this meaning there-I think he may mention the idiomatic interpretation that I agree with though.

Also note that the most common usage of “kayena phusitva” is when describing the salayatana (six sense spheres), specifically there it means touching with the (physical) body.

Anyways, I understand that kayena is in instrumental, but I see no reason why it can’t have an idiomatic meaning. Instrumentals can have nearly “adverbial” usage in certain contexts anyways. From AK Warder pg 45 we see that instrumentals can also indicate the manner in which something is done- in his words “thus instrumentals may be used like ‘adverbs of manner’ “. So to summarize my position: the instrumental kayena here is used like an “adverb of manner” idiomatically describing the manner of “touching” ie “directly touching”.

It would be good if others with more knowledge of pali could chime in. I’m definitely a novice myself!
Last edited by waryoffolly on Sun May 16, 2021 12:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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