(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

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waryoffolly
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:01 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm
For the third jhana formula then, our first preference should be to translate kayena according to it's most common usage
Common usage according to the 21st Century, or according to Iron Age India? In the Upanishads "Ātman" can be either the True Self, referring to the experiencer of the world, or it can simply mean a physical body. Body here then can refer to one's inner world (the most inner of inner here) or it can refer to one's experience in the outer world, via the physical body. Is there any reason to doubt that this understanding wasn't common currency during the time of the Buddha, given how many other terms found in the Upanishads were also used by the Master?
Hi Ceisiwr,

By common usage I was referring to it’s common usage in the canon itself, not the common cultural usage.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:45 am
Both Sylvester and Ajahn Sujato have no problem taking “kayena phusitva” to idiomatically mean “directly/personally”. Both have a better understanding of pali then either you (afaik) or I. Moreover, both subscribe to the “hard jhana” interpretation. See here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/to ... y/2353/11
Well they would, since they don’t want nibbāna to be an external dhamma that is cognised. Thankfully the answer to quid est veritas isn’t Sylvester & Sujato ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:02 am
waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:45 am
Both Sylvester and Ajahn Sujato have no problem taking “kayena phusitva” to idiomatically mean “directly/personally”. Both have a better understanding of pali then either you (afaik) or I. Moreover, both subscribe to the “hard jhana” interpretation. See here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/to ... y/2353/11
Well they would, since they don’t want nibbāna to be an external dhamma that is cognised. Thankfully the answer to quid est veritas isn’t Sylvester & Sujato ;)
Of course appeal to authorities isn’t a strict logical argument. However, in the real world our own personal knowledge has a certain amount of uncertainty surrounding it. Especially if we aren’t experts. So if we see multiple experts disagreeing with our view then it’s cause for us to investigate our own understanding more carefully, and to be more uncertain about our own understanding. But perhaps there is disagreement among experts on this? In which case there really is no choice but to figure it out yourself, or to place your faith in someone else’s understanding.

Incidentally I’d also argue that placing faith in someone else’s understanding can be rational. Why? Because maybe there are clear indications that they have a deeper understanding than you!

Anyways, if you’d like to discuss this further then please make a separate topic so we don’t go astray from the OP.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:15 am

Of course appeal to authorities isn’t a strict logical argument. However, in the real world our own personal knowledge has a certain amount of uncertainty surrounding it. Especially if we aren’t experts. So if we see multiple experts disagreeing with our view then it’s cause for us to investigate our own understanding more carefully, and to be more uncertain about our own understanding. But perhaps there is disagreement among experts on this? In which case there really is no choice but to figure it out yourself, or to place your faith in someone else’s understanding.

Incidentally I’d also argue that placing faith in someone else’s understanding can be rational. Why? Because maybe there are clear indications that they have a deeper understanding than you!
If you want to do that with Sylvester and Sujato that’s fine with me. I take it then from now on then you will accept that kaya in the context we have been discussing is not the physical body? ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:34 am
waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:15 am

Of course appeal to authorities isn’t a strict logical argument. However, in the real world our own personal knowledge has a certain amount of uncertainty surrounding it. Especially if we aren’t experts. So if we see multiple experts disagreeing with our view then it’s cause for us to investigate our own understanding more carefully, and to be more uncertain about our own understanding. But perhaps there is disagreement among experts on this? In which case there really is no choice but to figure it out yourself, or to place your faith in someone else’s understanding.

Incidentally I’d also argue that placing faith in someone else’s understanding can be rational. Why? Because maybe there are clear indications that they have a deeper understanding than you!
If you want to do that with Sylvester and Sujato that’s fine with me. I take it then from now on then you will accept that kaya in the context we have been discussing is not the physical body? ;)
I referenced those two, because I assumed you generally agreed with them, and had some amount of trust in their understandings. Apparently not! Let’s not follow this topic further, I think it’s a bit of a red herring.

As for the meaning of kaya-as I said before, this idiomatic meaning (in my understanding) is the only place I’ve found where it doesn’t seem to refer to the body, and isn’t used in a compound or with a prefix. Moreover, it’s a rare usage. This was my position in my first post. I would appreciate it if you reread my first post on this before replying again (if you chose to at all) so we’re on the same page.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:41 am
I referenced those two, because I assumed you generally agreed with them, and had some amount of trust in their understandings. Apparently not! Let’s not follow this topic further, I think it’s a bit of a red herring.
I agree with Sylvester and Sujato on a lot of things. Some things I don’t agree with. Sujato’s political views come to mind, not that this is much connected with Dhamma anyway. I suppose the nature of Nibbana would be another.
As for the meaning of kaya-as I said before, this idiomatic meaning (in my understanding) is the only place I’ve found where it doesn’t seem to refer to the body, and isn’t used in a compound or with a prefix. Moreover, it’s a rare usage. This was my position in my first post. I would appreciate it if you reread my first post on this before replying again (if you chose to at all) so we’re on the same page.
Something being rare doesn’t mean much in of itself. You still have all of your work ahead of you to establish that kaya in the context we have been discussing should be defined as the physical body. To begin you would have to address at least the kama and multiple perceptions problem, again.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:55 am
As for the meaning of kaya-as I said before, this idiomatic meaning (in my understanding) is the only place I’ve found where it doesn’t seem to refer to the body, and isn’t used in a compound or with a prefix. Moreover, it’s a rare usage. This was my position in my first post. I would appreciate it if you reread my first post on this before replying again (if you chose to at all) so we’re on the same page.
Something being rare doesn’t mean much in of itself. You still have all of your work ahead of you to establish that kaya in the context we have been discussing should be defined as the physical body. To begin you would have to address at least the kama and multiple perceptions problem, again.
I think I’ll pass on these two issues (kama and diverse perceptions) for now. I’d rather practice than debate these issues. Anyways I mostly agree with nyana’s position of what kama means, so if you’d like to know my position on this topic just search for kama in his posts (although I can’t guarantee I’ll agree with 100% of what he says). Probably I have nothing new to say that you haven’t already seen, and you have nothing new to say that I haven’t already seen about kama.

Anyways I am interested in working together with you or anyone else to further my understanding of what the texts say. To this point, can you find another usage of kaya on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) which doesn’t mean the body besides the rare and disputed (by the two of us) kayena phustiva usage for nibbana and the formless? I haven’t been able to find one yet. If you take the time to help search for this, then we would be working together to further both of our understandings rather than rehashing a 2000 year old debate.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:08 am
I think I’ll pass on these two issues (kama and diverse perceptions) for now. I’d rather practice than debate these issues. Anyways I mostly agree with nyana’s position of what kama means, so if you’d like to know my position on this topic just search for kama in his posts (although I can’t guarantee I’ll agree with 100% of what he says)
I remember his posts from years ago, yes.
Anyways I am interested in working together with you or anyone else to further my understanding of what the texts say. To this point, can you find another usage of kaya on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) which doesn’t mean the body besides the rare and disputed (by the two of us) kayena phustiva usage for nibbana and the formless? I haven’t been able to find one yet. If you take the time to help search for this, then we would be working together to further both of our understandings rather than rehashing a 2000 year old debate.
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am
Anyways I am interested in working together with you or anyone else to further my understanding of what the texts say. To this point, can you find another usage of kaya on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) which doesn’t mean the body besides the rare and disputed (by the two of us) kayena phustiva usage for nibbana and the formless? I haven’t been able to find one yet. If you take the time to help search for this, then we would be working together to further both of our understandings rather than rehashing a 2000 year old debate.
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
Well thanks for looking something up. I disagree with you, and feel the exact opposite. The fact that body and mind are used in the same sentence here strongly suggests they mean two different things. I’m also not interested in debating on this quote with you. If you feel the need to debate about it, I’d again encourage you to start a new dedicated thread to keep this one more focused (and I will edit this post to include a link to that thread). Regardless, I do appreciate you took the time to find what you consider as an example of kaya meaning something besides the body.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by salayatananirodha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
what else would it mean?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

amataṃ dhātuṃ kāyena phusitvā viharantīti maraṇavirahitaṃ nibbānadhātuṃ sandhāya kammaṭṭhānaṃ gahetvā viharantā anukkamena taṃ nāmakāyena phusitvā viharanti.

Having contacted the deathless element with the body he abides free from death, dwelling having taken the nibbāna element as the meditation object and so abides having contacted it with that nāmakāyena.


Manorathapūraṇī Aṭṭhakathā - 4. Mahācundasuttavaṇṇanā

Ven. Buddhaghosa's commentary to AN 6.46. It's my own rough translation so it might need some further work.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am
Anyways I am interested in working together with you or anyone else to further my understanding of what the texts say. To this point, can you find another usage of kaya on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) which doesn’t mean the body besides the rare and disputed (by the two of us) kayena phustiva usage for nibbana and the formless? I haven’t been able to find one yet. If you take the time to help search for this, then we would be working together to further both of our understandings rather than rehashing a 2000 year old debate.
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
Well thanks for looking something up. I disagree with you, and feel the exact opposite. The fact that body and mind are used in the same sentence here strongly suggests they mean two different things. I’m also not interested in debating on this quote with you. If you feel the need to debate about it, I’d again encourage you to start a new dedicated thread to keep this one more focused (and I will edit this post to include a link to that thread). Regardless, I do appreciate you took the time to find what you consider as an example of kaya meaning something besides the body.
And that's the problem, isn't it. You ask for an example where kāya on it's own doesn't mean the physical body, I give you an example and you disagree reading it the other way. This is why looking at kāya on it's own doesn't mean much. We have to look at the context and additional arguments. So far they are heavily stacked against kāya meaning the physical body, in terms of Jhāna.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun May 16, 2021 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
what else would it mean?
Mental fatigue.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
Posts: 346
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:56 am
waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am

"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
Well thanks for looking something up. I disagree with you, and feel the exact opposite. The fact that body and mind are used in the same sentence here strongly suggests they mean two different things. I’m also not interested in debating on this quote with you. If you feel the need to debate about it, I’d again encourage you to start a new dedicated thread to keep this one more focused (and I will edit this post to include a link to that thread). Regardless, I do appreciate you took the time to find what you consider as an example of kaya meaning something besides the body.
And that's the problem, isn't it. You ask for an example where kāya on it's own doesn't mean the physical body, I give you an example and you disagree reading it the other way. This is why looking at kāya on it's own doesn't mean much. We have to look at the context and additional arguments. So far they are heavily stacked against kāya meaning the physical body, in terms of Jhāna.
The quote you provided was a very clear cut example of kaya meaning body, if you don’t see that then I really doubt there’s much room for meaningful dialogue between us.

Incidentally, I think the way you interpret jhana can work in practice. So my wish for you is to develop jhana based on your own understanding and attain the fruits of the path afterwards. I also hope that your time on dhammawheel acts as a benefit to your practice.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by salayatananirodha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:56 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am
"Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya. Kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya."
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is stressed."
- MN 19

I see no reason to read this as a physical body.
what else would it mean?
Mental fatigue.
this makes no sense
so, 'when the mind is tired, the mind is stressed'? you think the buddha would say such a pointless thing?
it seems like you're trying too hard to make this fit your view
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