(AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by BrokenBones »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:56 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am

what else would it mean?
Mental fatigue.
this makes no sense
so, 'when the mind is tired, the mind is stressed'? you think the buddha would say such a pointless thing?
it seems like you're trying too hard to make this fit your view
It's a recurring theme with hard jhana.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by ToVincent »

"kāyena phusitvā viharanti" occurences.

Avuso, puggalā dullabhā lokasmiṃ, ye amataṃ dhātuṃ kāyena phusitvā viharanti.
Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
AN 6.46 has no parallel AT ALL.

Dubious suttas — dubious speculations
Mere logorrhoea — No serious work - as usual.

(Nor AN 6.45, AN 9.43, AN 8.72, AN 10.9, AN 9.45, AN 4.87, AN 4.89, AN 4.90, SN 48.53, have any parallel AT ALL).
SN 12.70, MN 6, do not have parallels for this extract.

-------

The following suttas in which "kāyena phusitvā viharanti" appears, do have a perfect and a somewhat parallels:
“Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.
Suppose, friend, there was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it."
SN 12.68

"Now I will give an example, and the wise will understand it immediately through an example. As in the middle of a deserted field by the roadside, there is a well, but there is no rope or bucket to get the water. A passerby at that time was oppressed by thirst, and went around the well looking for water, but there was no rope or bucket. He examines the well water and sees it without touching it with his body. In the same way I say, 'Death is cessation, Nirvana,' but I am not yet an Arahant who is free of all taints."
SA 351
“What kind of person is a body-witness?
Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and some of his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called a body-witness.
I say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? Because when that venerable one makes use of suitable resting places and associates with good friends and nurtures his spiritual faculties, he may by realising for himself with direct knowledge here and now enter upon and abide in that supreme goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the home life into homelessness. Seeing this fruit of diligence for such a bhikkhu, I say that he still has work to do with diligence.
MN 70

What is a bhikkhu with a body witness?
With regard to the eight liberations, the bhikkhu has personally realized, achieved abiding, not by wisdom, that the taints have been eradicated. Thus the bhikkhu has a body witness.
This bhikkhu I say practice non-distraction. I see that this bhikkhu acts without distraction.
What results make me say that the monk did not act distractedly?
Here, this bhikkhu seeks to control the senses, to study according to right knowledge, to live in peace and harmony, to have all the taints eradicated, to attain clearness, to be liberated, to be liberated by wisdom, right in the present. With self-knowledge, self-awareness, self-actualization, achievement and abiding, knowing as it has come to be: 'Birth has ended, the holy life has been established,what needs to be done is done, there is no more rebirth.'
Since I see that this bhikkhu is not distracted and has such a result, I say that this bhikkhu practices non-distraction.

MA 195
______________

Nor does SN 48.40 have an EBT parallel AT ALL.

______________

The taints (craving for sensual pleasure, craving for existence, and ignorance,) are what makes the physical kāya, not capable to become (again) the mental kāya.
(The debasement is still there).

Again, kāya is the ci in action.
.
.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

Hi waryoffolly,
waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm From my own exploration of kaya in the suttas, it seems clear that when used on it’s own (ie not in a compound or with a prefix) kaya almost always means physical body. The only exception to this I’ve seen is kayena being used idiomatically as “directly/viscerally/personally”. However, the instrumental usage of kayena also typically refers to the physical body (search digital pali reader for kayena).
Thank you for your thoughts.

There's also a perspective of Geoff Shatz (Nyana), who wrote (my formatting and Pāli quotes added):
The Third Jhāna

DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta gives the standard formula for the third jhāna as follows:
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and remains in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly.’
AN 9.42 tells us that the pleasure commonly referred to in the descriptions of the third jhāna is actually the pleasure of equanimity (upekkhāsukha). This accords well with SN 48.40, where it states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases in the third jhāna. What remains is the equanimity faculty (upekkhindriya) and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya), which in light of SN 48.37, in the third jhāna refers to bodily equanimity (kāyika upekkhā) and mental pleasure (cetasika sukha). DN 9 refers to the apperception of this experience as an actual refined recognition of equanimity (upekkhāsukhasukhumasaccasaññā).

Again, this conforms to the word-commentary offered in Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
so pītiyā virāgā yāti ojahi jallasahagataṃ. tattha somanassacittamupādānanti ca so taṃ vicinanto upekkhameva manasikaroti. so pītiyā virāgā upekkhako viharati. yathā ca pītiyā sukhamānitaṃ, taṃ kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti sampajāno viharati. yena satisampajaññena upekkhāpāripūriṃ gacchati.

With the fading away of joy he has abandoned what is comprised of wetness (i.e. joy). But happiness of mind still arises there, and when he investigates that, he gives attention only to equanimity. With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, and as he still feels with the body the pleasure [of equanimity] induced by joy, he remains fully aware. Mindful and fully aware, equanimity comes to fulfillment.
It is also worth noting that mindfulness and full awareness are given as dominant jhāna factors here in the third jhāna. This reveals the integral progression from the four applications of mindfulness as integral mindfulness continuing through to the third and fourth jhānas as integral meditative composure.
http://web.archive.org/web/201603051817 ... hanas.html

What would you say about this?
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by frank k »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:57 pm ...
Maybe, I'll make a catalogue of the different instrumental usages of kaya in the canon later this weekend. There are only around 500 hits, and many (I'd guess over half) are stock formulas (abhinna, salayatana, and jhana formula) so it probably wouldn't take that long.

In my view the compound usages of kaya likely work in the same way “body of water” works in english-by itself body is almost always the physical body, but with joined together with “of water” it takes the meaning of group.

Let me know what either of you (Frank/Assaji) think!

Definitely let me know, send a private message if you do compile that kaya usage article, and I'll publish it on my website.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by frank k »

ToVincent wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:40 am ...

Nor does SN 48.40 have an EBT parallel AT ALL.

...
.
You should read my short summary in the OP, if you don't want to read the full artcile by Tse Fu Kuan.
basically, even though the parallel for SN 48.40 agama suttas were lost (as is much of the different agama schools), it's not because it doesn't exist, it's because muslims went through india burning books, killing monastics, etc, among other reasons. The 4 different schools I cited preserve the SN $8.40 parallel, and they're consistent with each other, not with the Theravada SN 48.40
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:56 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:18 am

what else would it mean?
Mental fatigue.
this makes no sense
so, 'when the mind is tired, the mind is stressed'? you think the buddha would say such a pointless thing?
it seems like you're trying too hard to make this fit your view
It says when the kāyo is tired the citta is stressed. What I am not doing is engaging with the irrational circular reasoning the Jhāna-lite folks seem so fond of.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by chownah »

I think I remember a sutta which says something like the consciousness of each of the five sense media do not have any connection with what happens in the other four sense media and that only the mind sense base has access to other sense consciousness and the mind has access to all of the five sense media.....or something like that (if someone knows the sutta I'd appreciate the reference to see how badly I have remembered it).

If my memory is correct then it seems that the mind has access to all that happens with the body sense media......so.....then does this mean that whatever one says is happening in the body one can also say that it is happening in the mind as well?....assuming of course that the mind is focused on the body. In other words it might be that with a properly focused mind there is little to no difference whether it is approached with the context of the body or if it is approached with the context of the mind.......I guess....don't know for sure....
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

When we make a big hullaballoo about something not having agama parallels, we are admitting that more or less all Theravadin buddhavacana should be checked against Sarvastivadin buddhavacana. What if one of the two sects was a load of nonsense? Checking the buddhavacana against nonsense doesn't seem like a good method.

Certainly, if two schools otherwise opposed to each other share sutta-material, that is a good sign of it being transectarian and a common heritage, but also these two schools in forming their distinct ideas and doctrines could have strayed any which way and determined that any which problematic scripture they had was improper. Most of the Buddhist councils are exercises in trimming scripture, not adding to the Canon. Each sect trims according to their own metrics.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by waryoffolly »

Assaji wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:31 am There's also a perspective of Geoff Shatz (Nyana), who wrote (my formatting and Pāli quotes added):
This is one of the areas I disagree with Geoff.

First thing to note is how he treats piti and sukha in the first two jhana’s as being somanassa (piti) and sukha (sukha) faculties. See here viewtopic.php?p=89678#p89678 where he says:

'Taking all of the above passages into consideration we can deduce that the non-carnal joy of the first jhāna is mental pleasure (cetasika sukha, i.e. somanassa) born of mind contact, and the non-carnal pleasure of the first jhāna is bodily pleasure (kāyika sukha) born of body contact.'

He then goes on to say this matches the petakopodesa (quote below) which clearly labels piti as somanassa indriya and sukha as sukha indriya:

'The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is joy, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling'

Taking these two quotes into account (and that he agrees with the petakopodesa quote) it seems clear that in the first two jhana Nyana is equating piti=somanassa indriya, and sukha=sukha indriya. I wish he was around to clarify if that's correct though! (There is a possibility that he isn't making this equation, but it's a slim chance based on what he wrote.)

So keeping this equation in mind (for 1st and 2nd jhana piti=somanassa indriya and sukha=sukha indriya), we can now look at his third jhana explanation.

The Third Jhāna

DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta gives the standard formula for the third jhāna as follows:
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and remains in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly.’
AN 9.42 tells us that the pleasure commonly referred to in the descriptions of the third jhāna is actually the pleasure of equanimity (upekkhāsukha).
His reading of AN 9.42 seems fine to me. It does depend on how one reads the compound upekkhasukham, but if I understand correctly I think he is reading it as a tappurisa compound which seems reasonable (again I'm a pali novice so please correct me if I'm wrong here!). I think we could also potentially read it as a dvanda (copulative) compound, which wouldn't really be adding any new information. Do you know if reading it as a dvanda compound is also valid pali?-I don't see any reason why not. If we read it as dvanda compound then instead of saying 'pleasure of equanimity' it would read as 'pleasure-equanimity'/'pleasure and equanimity'. In this reading, the compound here wouldn't be giving us any new information about the meaning of sukha in the third jhana, and instead it would just be describing the two feeling factors which are in the third jhana. Anyways, this is a minor point, and given my low skill level of pali, I could be incorrect anyways.

Let's assume he's correct to read the compound as 'pleasure of equanimity'. Reading it his way admits two possible interpretations in my view. In third jhana either: 1. there is mental sukha born of bodily equanimity or 2. there is bodily sukha born of mental equanimity. Probably you see how 1 is a valid reading, while 2 may seem stranger. Here's how I think 2 would work: mental equanimity towards bodily experience -> intensified bodily passadhi -> bodily pleasure born of passadhi (and mental equanimity). So his reading of the compound doesn't necessarily clarify whether or not third jhana sukha is mental. Also we should be careful to not be overly reliant on an interpretation of a single compound to drive our understanding! (I'm not saying he does this though, because he uses SN 48.40 as well).
This accords well with SN 48.40, where it states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases in the third jhāna.
This is the sutta in contention, so for now we can ignore his point about it. However, it's important to note that earlier Nyana (again if I understood correctly) equates piti=somanassa faculty and sukha=sukha faculty in first jhana. Here, his reading requires that sukha now flips and means somanassa, while piti means sukha faculty! This is also the case for the petakopodesa analysis from what I can tell. I think it's much simpler, and pedagogically sound**, if we take piti and sukha to have consistent meanings across each jhana.
**(ie if we assume the Buddha was a good teacher why would words suddenly switch meanings in the jhana formulas?)

(It is possible to make this work if we let the sukha faculty include both bodily and mental vedana, but that seems like a stretch if you agree with the analysis in the vibhanga sutta SN 40.37, where sukha faculty is explicitly 'kayasamphassaja' ie born of body contact.)
What remains is the equanimity faculty (upekkhindriya) and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya), which in light of SN 48.37, in the third jhāna refers to bodily equanimity (kāyika upekkhā) and mental pleasure (cetasika sukha). DN 9 refers to the apperception of this experience as an actual refined recognition of equanimity (upekkhāsukhasukhumasaccasaññā).
This reasoning is completely dependent on SN 48.40. If we don't have the pleasure faculty ceasing in the third jhana, then this doesn't work. Given we have a parallel with a conflicting order of cessation, we should be uncertain about relying on the contents of the sutta to make the argument work.
Again, this conforms to the word-commentary offered in Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
so pītiyā virāgā yāti ojahi jallasahagataṃ. tattha somanassacittamupādānanti ca so taṃ vicinanto upekkhameva manasikaroti. so pītiyā virāgā upekkhako viharati. yathā ca pītiyā sukhamānitaṃ, taṃ kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti sampajāno viharati. yena satisampajaññena upekkhāpāripūriṃ gacchati.

With the fading away of joy he has abandoned what is comprised of wetness (i.e. joy). But happiness of mind still arises there, and when he investigates that, he gives attention only to equanimity. With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, and as he still feels with the body the pleasure [of equanimity] induced by joy, he remains fully aware. Mindful and fully aware, equanimity comes to fulfillment.
This does seem to agree with Nyana's view. However, the really tricky part is that later on in the fourth jhana gloss the petakopodesa gives an analysis of the indriya faculties which doesn't accord with SN 48.40! There is a caveat though-a slight corruption has occurred, and I'll point it out below. Ven Nyanamoli's translation of the fourth jhana explanation, paragraph 588 of the petakopodesa:

'Likewise with the abandoning of bodily pleasure, in the first meditation the grief faculty** ceases, and in the second meditation the pain faculty ceases, so with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, he enters upon and abides in the fourth meditation, which has neither pain nor pleasure, and the purity of whose mindfulness is due to onlooking-equanimity. Herein, the onlooking equanimity was as yet unclarified owing to the four faculties, namely the pain, grief, pleasure, and joy faculty. '
**Read domanassindriyam for somanassindriyam


If you want to provide the pali that would be great!

Here I discuss the corruption:
So the corruption, here labelled by '**' , is that the original pali has somanassindriyam ceasing in the first jhana. However, by the context it's clear in my view, and also the view of Ven Nyanamoli, that domanassindriyam must be meant here. There is only a one letter difference between the two, so it's a corruption that could easily have happened (there are many corruptions in this text). Also, the sentence it (domanassindriyam) is used in also includes the pain faculty ceasing in the second jhana so it seems likely that this sentence is discussing the two painful indriya and their cessation. Moreover, the reading of somanassindryam ceasing in first jhana contradicts SN 48.40 and it's parallel the aviparitaka sutra (as well as previous discussion in the petakopodesa itself). So I think we can safely read this as domanassindriyam.

If you agree with my analysis of the corruption (and I acknowledge it's not 100% airtight!), then the explanation in the fourth jhana gloss of the feeling faculties actually agrees with the aviparitaka sutra, and disagrees with SN 48.40!. Ie here domanassa (mental pain faculty) ceases in first jhana, and dukkha (bodily pain faculty) ceases in second jhana. So here we have another potential reason to be suspicious of SN 48.40-it almost suggests that there was an earlier version of SN 48.40 that the petakopodesa author had access to which had the order of cessation of the faculties matching the aviparitaka sutra (but this is very speculative!).
I'd say overall that Nyana's view depends on taking the SN 48.40 account as being correct, and really doesn't have much external evidence for it besides this one sutta which has a conflicting parallel. He tries to also rely on a specific interpretation of a compound in AN 9.42, but I don't think his interpretation necessitates his view for third jhana (that sukha in 3rd is mental) as I suggest earlier. His interpretation if I properly understand it also requires that piti and sukha switch meanings in the third jhana formula compared to the first two.

Let me know what you think.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by salayatananirodha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:33 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:56 am

Mental fatigue.
this makes no sense
so, 'when the mind is tired, the mind is stressed'? you think the buddha would say such a pointless thing?
it seems like you're trying too hard to make this fit your view
It says when the kāyo is tired the citta is stressed. What I am not doing is engaging with the irrational circular reasoning the Jhāna-lite folks seem so fond of.
you have to accept things that are obviously true even if you disagree about other things
it's clear from context this means body and not mind
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by ToVincent »

There is no hullaballoo in checking Pali sutta's parallels. No more than there is excitement in saying that the Muslims came after the Chinese visted India, and that the early texts were already safe in China.

Instead of the hullaballoo of senseless logorrhoea, one should wonder if, out of the 14 suttas referring to "kāyena phusitvā viharanti" — of which 12 have no parallel — the remaining two, which have a perfect and a somewhat parallels, are not able to give us the clue about the meaning of that expression — namely:.
ToVincent (in a previous post above) wrote:The taints (craving for sensual pleasure, craving for existence, and ignorance,) are what makes the physical kāya, not capable to become (again,) the mental kāya.

With kāya being the ci in action (active form of the root ci).

.
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

Hi Chownah,
chownah wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:36 pm I think I remember a sutta which says something like the consciousness of each of the five sense media do not have any connection with what happens in the other four sense media and that only the mind sense base has access to other sense consciousness and the mind has access to all of the five sense media.....or something like that (if someone knows the sutta I'd appreciate the reference to see how badly I have remembered it).
See the topic on "mano": viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5538
chownah wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:36 pm If my memory is correct then it seems that the mind has access to all that happens with the body sense media......so.....then does this mean that whatever one says is happening in the body one can also say that it is happening in the mind as well?....assuming of course that the mind is focused on the body. In other words it might be that with a properly focused mind there is little to no difference whether it is approached with the context of the body or if it is approached with the context of the mind.......I guess....don't know for sure....
Well, I won't say so. "Mano" (imagination) integrates the data from five sense-spheres and fills the gaps. You may find interesting the experiments:

https://lasikofnv.com/try-these-3-fun-t ... lind-spot/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Body+transfer+illusion
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Assaji »

Hi waryoffolly,
waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:20 pm If you agree with my analysis of the corruption (and I acknowledge it's not 100% airtight!), then the explanation in the fourth jhana gloss of the feeling faculties actually agrees with the aviparitaka sutra, and disagrees with SN 48.40!. Ie here domanassa (mental pain faculty) ceases in first jhana, and dukkha (bodily pain faculty) ceases in second jhana. So here we have another potential reason to be suspicious of SN 48.40-it almost suggests that there was an earlier version of SN 48.40 that the petakopodesa author had access to which had the order of cessation of the faculties matching the aviparitaka sutra (but this is very speculative!).

...

I'd say overall that Nyana's view depends on taking the SN 48.40 account as being correct, and really doesn't have much external evidence for it besides this one sutta which has a conflicting parallel. He tries to also rely on a specific interpretation of a compound in AN 9.42, but I don't think his interpretation necessitates his view for third jhana (that sukha in 3rd is mental) as I suggest earlier. His interpretation if I properly understand it also requires that piti and sukha switch meanings in the third jhana formula compared to the first two.

Let me know what you think.
Thank you, your analysis is very helpful. Speaking about the external evidence - it seems to me these questions troubled even the disciples of the Arahant Upatissa:

https://archive.org/details/ArahantUpat ... 1/mode/2up
chownah
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by chownah »

Assaji wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:35 am Hi Chownah,
chownah wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:36 pm I think I remember a sutta which says something like the consciousness of each of the five sense media do not have any connection with what happens in the other four sense media and that only the mind sense base has access to other sense consciousness and the mind has access to all of the five sense media.....or something like that (if someone knows the sutta I'd appreciate the reference to see how badly I have remembered it).
See the topic on "mano": viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5538
chownah wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:36 pm If my memory is correct then it seems that the mind has access to all that happens with the body sense media......so.....then does this mean that whatever one says is happening in the body one can also say that it is happening in the mind as well?....assuming of course that the mind is focused on the body. In other words it might be that with a properly focused mind there is little to no difference whether it is approached with the context of the body or if it is approached with the context of the mind.......I guess....don't know for sure....
Well, I won't say so. "Mano" (imagination) integrates the data from five sense-spheres and fills the gaps. You may find interesting the experiments:

https://lasikofnv.com/try-these-3-fun-t ... lind-spot/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Body+transfer+illusion
Thank you so much for your reply. I see from the link to the mano topic that the sutta I was looking for is the Mahavedalla Sutta which can be found here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-2.

I certainly accept your statement that you would not say "that whatever one says is happening in the body one can also say that it is happening in the mind as well". Your view is almost assuredly representative of the vast majority of theravadins.....my conjecture is certainly an outlyer with respect to theravadin views. I am not sure but it seems that the main explanation you have so far presented as to why you disagree is based on "mano" carrying the "imagination" function.....which I guess means that it imaginatively fills in the gaps in information presented by the five senses.

One of your links gives a scientific description of how the mind fills in the blank spot which each human eye has and I guess this is saying that the mind imaginatively fills in that blank spot in the visual field (I didn't read the entire article as I am familiar with this already). This is just one of many instances where the mind "imaginatively" augments the visual field which presents to the retina.....another is the seeming interpolation of data which the mind does to combine data from the rapid and continuous movements of the eye which gives the visual field finer details (and which may be part of how the blind spot gets filled although this is just my conjecture as I don't really know how it does that....maybe I should have read the entire article?....is it there?) There are lots of other "imginative" additions to the visual expereince rendered by the mind which are called "optical illusions".

Your other link talks about how a person can be tricked into thinking that a rubber hand is actually their own hand.....from the wikipedia article it seems that this only manifests when there is visual input.

In my post I said "assuming of course that the mind is focused on the body"....perhaps I should have said "properly focused on the body".....I didn't say the because since this thread is about jhana I assumed that the mind would be properly focused on the body. I think it is important to see that the examples you brought do not deal with people whose mind is properly focused on the body within the context of jhana absorption......and it should also be noted that in both links the mind of the participants seem to be NOT focused on the body but rather there is a large component of focus on the visual sense.

It can be seen further that in the fake hand effect as discussed on wikipedia they say that this works because of "Human bodily experience is characterized by the immediate and continuous experience that our body and its parts belong to us, often called self-attribution, body ownership and or mineness.".....certainly the fake hand effect would not happen in jhana in that the visual cues would be absent (also, a fake rubber hand in jhana?....hahahha) but more importantly in jhana (my opinion here) there is the emergence of the non-arising of self-attribution and mineness.

Also, I find your explanations about "mano" interesting in the link you presented to that topic but I do not find them as being a proper interpretation of "mano" functioning. I don't find that suttas directly supporting your assertions (perhaps the abhidhamma does....I don't read the abhidhamma) individually and I don't see anything which takes the purported functions of "mano" and indicates that they all come into play whenever mano is active. In the mano thread you quote the mahavadella sutta as saying ""mano enjoys the function-spheres of the other senses"" but you seem to be assuming that this means "mano supervises the spheres of other senses" which is another thing entirely....enjoying the function spheres of the other senses does not mean that there is a supervisory role there. You say that "it uses the memory" and then reference "Unnabha-brahmana sutta, S. V.217" but I have not been able to find your mention of memory (can you bring it here in english?) but it does say "The Buddha replies that the mind is their common resort and domain." (speaking of the other five senses).

So....in a nutshell.....there seem to be ample reference to the mind having access to the other five sense experiences as thanissaro says in https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-2""Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator. The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains."".......and I find the sutta references to this to be consistent while I find your interpretations of "mano" to be less convincing. It seems clear that what the body experiences the mind has access to it (or at least it seems clear to me)......for me the bottom line is that in this topic about jhana as to whether it speaks of the body or whether it speaks of a mind made body or whether it speaks of the mind is a point which need not be debated in that it seems from the sutta references that whatever happens in the bodily ranges and domains is experienced at the mind as well.

My view is that if one wants to differentiate between body/mind-made-body/mind one would need to take all steps possible to develop discernment to a much higher degree than most of us here have and even then the lesson to be learned might just be that mentality is always an aspect of experience and perhaps it is the one to focus on since it seems to be implicated in self making to a much greater degree than the other five....ditto for suffering.....isn't it the mind which takes us away from in the seeing only the seen?
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Re: (AVS) Aviparitaka Sutra (agama parallel to SN 48.40), a sutta Vism. uses to justify redefining Jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:33 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 am

this makes no sense
so, 'when the mind is tired, the mind is stressed'? you think the buddha would say such a pointless thing?
it seems like you're trying too hard to make this fit your view
It says when the kāyo is tired the citta is stressed. What I am not doing is engaging with the irrational circular reasoning the Jhāna-lite folks seem so fond of.
you have to accept things that are obviously true even if you disagree about other things
it's clear from context this means body and not mind
dhamma is not esoteric. not a riddle to be solved, that would not be compassionate
Yes, we do. Why does it mean the physical body? Because it says “body”?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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