What is Nama-rupa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 16226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

What is Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

What is Nama-rupa?
After much thought about this subject, I came up with the following example for Nama-rupa.
Take a female figure for example. She is,
- the mother for the child
- wife for the husband
- sister for the siblings
- neighbor for the neighbour
- friend for a fried
-enemy for the enemy
- Food for a lion

so the same figure got seven different types of Nama-rupa for seven different people.
Hence we are living in a world of Nama-rupa created by ourselves.

Now take a mango.
What if two people see mango as something to eat?
Do both have the same Nama-rupa?

-
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

Labelling.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12773
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Designation/conceptualisation (literally name) and form/image, rather than “Mind & matter”.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11156
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:29 pm Designation/conceptualisation (literally name) and form/image,
Brahminism. May you be well.
SarathW wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:24 am Take a female figure for example. She is,
- the mother for the child
- wife for the husband
- sister for the siblings
- neighbor for the neighbour
- friend for a fried
-enemy for the enemy
- Food for a lion
The above definition we can find in the Vedas, namely, father naming the form of his son.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
Posts: 16226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

nāma:
Mental phenomena. A collective term for vedanā (feeling), saññā (perception), cetana (intention, volition), phassa (sensory contact) and manasikāra (attention, advertence). Compare rūpa. Some commentators also use nāma to refer to the mental components of the five khandhas.
OP example is in line with the Sutta definition of nama-rupa.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:29 pm Designation/conceptualisation (literally name) and form/image,
Brahminism. May you be well.
SarathW wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:24 am Take a female figure for example. She is,
- the mother for the child
- wife for the husband
- sister for the siblings
- neighbor for the neighbour
- friend for a fried
-enemy for the enemy
- Food for a lion
The above definition we can find in the Vedas, namely, father naming the form of his son.
The modern interpretation contradict to the explanation u quoted before from SN.
User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 1700
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

As per DN 15, in the journey of descent into womb of consciousness to Non-miscarriage to youth to adult, it seems a lot less awkward to take Nama-rupa as Mentality-Materiality or mind-and-body than name-and-form.

Bhikkhu Bodhi
Mentality-Materiality
  • “It was said: ‘With consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality.’
    How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would mentality-materiality take shape in the womb?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would mentality-materiality be generated into this present state of being?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would mentality-materiality grow up, develop, and reach maturity?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for mentality-materiality, namely, consciousness.
suttas.com
mind-and-body
  • Buddha: As i have said earlier "Consciousness conditions mind-and-body."If consciousness were not to come into the mother's womb, would mind-and-body develop there?'
Ananda: 'No, lord.' (If there's no mind, there's no body. There's nothing there)
    Buddha: 'Or if consciousness, having entered the mother's womb, were to be deflected ..would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?'
Ananda: 'No, Lord.'
Buddha: 'And if consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and mature?'
Ananda: 'No, Lord.' 
Buddha: 'Therefore Ananda, just this, namely consciousness, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of mind-and-body.

Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
Name-&-Form
  • “‘From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.’ Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would name-&-form take shape in the womb?”
    “No, lord.”
    “If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-&-form be produced for this world?”
    “No, lord.”
    “If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-&-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?”
    “No, lord.”
    “Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-&-form, i.e., consciousness.


Bhikkhu Sujato
Name & form
  • ‘Consciousness is a condition for name and form’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?”
    “No, sir.”
    “If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this state of existence?”
    “No, sir.”
    “If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name and form achieve growth, increase, and maturity?”
    “No, sir.”
    “That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of name and form, namely consciousness.
:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 12773
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:03 pm
As per DN 15, in the journey of descent into womb to Non-miscarriage to youth to adult, it seems a lot less awkward to take Nama-rupa as Mentality-Materiality or mind-and-body than name-and-form.
In the Upanishads nama-rupa can just mean something along the lines of “that being/thing over there”. In DN 15 we see two uses of nama-rupa. The one is simply a label for the being about to be born, whilst the other is nama-rupa as found in the 12 links. The one involved in processing sense experience. It’s not the only sutta which uses this other understanding of nama-rupa. What nama-rupa means in a sutta then depends on the context.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
Bundokji
Posts: 3676
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Bundokji »

I take it to be empirical reality.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
Posts: 16226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:37 pm I take it to be empirical reality.
Could you elaborate on this, please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
Posts: 3676
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:52 pm Could you elaborate on this, please?
According to the following source:
Empirical reality is partly constituted by the infinity of possible worlds, one of which is the actual world, the subsistence of subjects of experience, and the mutual ontological and epistemological fit between subjects and objects of experience.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 7412829_10
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
form
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:03 pm As per DN 15, in the journey of descent into womb of consciousness to Non-miscarriage to youth to adult, it seems a lot less awkward to take Nama-rupa as Mentality-Materiality or mind-and-body than name-and-form.

Bhikkhu Bodhi
Mentality-Materiality
  • “It was said: ‘With consciousness as condition there is mentality-materiality.’
    How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would mentality-materiality take shape in the womb?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would mentality-materiality be generated into this present state of being?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would mentality-materiality grow up, develop, and reach maturity?”
    “Certainly not, venerable sir.”
    “Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for mentality-materiality, namely, consciousness.
suttas.com
mind-and-body
  • Buddha: As i have said earlier "Consciousness conditions mind-and-body."If consciousness were not to come into the mother's womb, would mind-and-body develop there?'
Ananda: 'No, lord.' (If there's no mind, there's no body. There's nothing there)
    Buddha: 'Or if consciousness, having entered the mother's womb, were to be deflected ..would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?'
Ananda: 'No, Lord.'
Buddha: 'And if consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and mature?'
Ananda: 'No, Lord.' 
Buddha: 'Therefore Ananda, just this, namely consciousness, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of mind-and-body.

Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
Name-&-Form
  • “‘From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.’ Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would name-&-form take shape in the womb?”
    “No, lord.”
    “If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-&-form be produced for this world?”
    “No, lord.”
    “If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-&-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?”
    “No, lord.”
    “Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-&-form, i.e., consciousness.


Bhikkhu Sujato
Name & form
  • ‘Consciousness is a condition for name and form’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?”
    “No, sir.”
    “If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this state of existence?”
    “No, sir.”
    “If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name and form achieve growth, increase, and maturity?”
    “No, sir.”
    “That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of name and form, namely consciousness.
:heart:
Name and form is gandhabba?
SarathW
Posts: 16226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

Name and form is gandhabba?
It appears Gandhabba is Vinnana.
Vinnana paccaya Namarupa.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11156
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:03 pm DN 15
fake dhamma for converting brahmins, as Sujato (unoriginally) suggested

buddhas obviously do not contradict themselves by teaching two versions of consciousness, nama-rupa, etc

nama-rupa & consciousness is defined in SN 12.2
SarathW wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 1:13 am It appears Gandhabba is Vinnana.
Vinnana paccaya Namarupa.
no. gandhabba is not vinnana. namarupa is 'inclination' ('nati'), per SN 12.40
When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is inclination. When there is inclination, there is coming and going.

SN 12.40
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
form
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

Consciousness and name&form is dual directional. They exist under such condition.
Post Reply