What is Nama-rupa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 am Consciousness and name&form is dual directional. They exist under such condition.
Agree.
Vinnana paccaya Namarupa
Namarupa paccaya Vinnana
However, what is crucial here is the Upadana.
In my opinion, Buddha also had Nama-rupa without clinging (upadana)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 am Consciousness and name&form is dual directional.
Not necessarily. They only appear dual directional in teachings that don't explain all 12 conditions.

You appear to be making a conclusive assertion from teachings that are not conclusive & merely partial.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 am Consciousness and name&form is dual directional. ...

:goodpost:
The sutta explicitly said so.



However, unfortunately, understandably & sympathizingly, this teaching might not be an exception for some habitual contradictioner religiously defiling almost all opinions of others, as a gratification-inducing personal ritual, on the verge of slandering the Buddha Himself, accusing of teaching fakes.
:lol:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
form
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:59 am
form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 am Consciousness and name&form is dual directional.
Not necessarily. They only appear dual directional in teachings that don't explain all 12 conditions.

You appear to be making a conclusive assertion from teachings that are not conclusive & merely partial.
OK. It could be. If I am not wrong, this info only appear at one place in the Nikaya.

The note on this part, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote that the point that the Buddha is trying to bring across could be there is no self in consciousness. It does not go further than name and form.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Here's Yet Another sutta for: "nāmarūpa paccaya vinnanam"

  • Then it occurred to me:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi:


    ‘When what exists is there consciousness? What is a condition for consciousness?’
    ‘kimhi nu kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, kiṁpaccayā viññāṇan’ti?

    Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo:


    ‘When name and form exist there’s consciousness. Name and form are a condition for consciousness.’
    ‘nāmarūpe kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇan’ti.
sn12.65

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
form
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:46 am Here's Yet Another sutta for: "nāmarūpa paccaya vinnanam"

  • Then it occurred to me:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi:


    ‘When what exists is there consciousness? What is a condition for consciousness?’
    ‘kimhi nu kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, kiṁpaccayā viññāṇan’ti?

    Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo:


    ‘When name and form exist there’s consciousness. Name and form are a condition for consciousness.’
    ‘nāmarūpe kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇan’ti.
sn12.65

:heart:
So that explanation appears twice in the nikaya?
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:55 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:46 am Here's Yet Another sutta for: "nāmarūpa paccaya vinnanam"

  • Then it occurred to me:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi:


    ‘When what exists is there consciousness? What is a condition for consciousness?’
    ‘kimhi nu kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, kiṁpaccayā viññāṇan’ti?

    Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom:
    Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo:


    ‘When name and form exist there’s consciousness. Name and form are a condition for consciousness.’
    ‘nāmarūpe kho sati viññāṇaṁ hoti, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇan’ti.
sn12.65

:heart:
So that explanation appears twice in the nikaya?








There are more, imo:

Another one sn12.67:
  • “Well, Reverend Sāriputta, is consciousness made by oneself? Or by another? Or by both oneself and another? Or does it arise by chance, not made by oneself or another?”
    “Kiṁ nu kho, āvuso sāriputta, sayaṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, paraṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca viññāṇaṁ, udāhu asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ viññāṇan”ti?
    “No, Reverend Koṭṭhita, consciousness is not made by oneself, nor by another, nor by both oneself and another, nor does it arise by chance, not made by oneself or another.
    “Na kho, āvuso koṭṭhika, sayaṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, na paraṅkataṁ viññāṇaṁ, na sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca viññāṇaṁ, nāpi asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ viññāṇaṁ.
    Rather, name and form are conditions for consciousness.”
    ...
    ...
    ...

    “Well then, reverend, I shall give you a simile.
    “Tenahāvuso, upamaṁ te karissāmi.
    For by means of a simile some sensible people understand the meaning of what is said.
    Upamāyapidhekacce viññū purisā bhāsitassa atthaṁ jānanti.
    Suppose there were two bundles of reeds leaning up against each other.
    Seyyathāpi, āvuso, dve naḷakalāpiyo aññamaññaṁ nissāya tiṭṭheyyuṁ.
    In the same way, name and form are conditions for consciousness.
    Evameva kho, āvuso, nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ;
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Another one, also from Sutta Pitaka
Khuddaka Nikāya/Paṭisambhidāmagga/1 Mahāvagga/1.6. Gatikathā
B20BF4D4-B5BC-4C54-B947-57B1136630E1.jpeg
translation: Bhikkhu Nanamoli
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
ToVincent
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by ToVincent »

Nāmarūpa is the manifested, the real.
Mentally (by the naming process) - and also physically, by the rūpa (mahābhūtāna rūpa and/or the upādāya rūpa).

___________
Ere sun and dawn man calls and calls one Deity by the other's name.
When the Unborn first sprang into existence he reached that independent sovran lordship;
than which aught higher never hath arisen.
Nāma nāmnā johavīti purā sūryāt puroṣasaḥ |
yad ajaḥ prathamaṃ saṃbabhūva sa ha tat svarājyam iyāya
yasmān nānyat param asti bhūtam
AVŚ 10.7.31
dve vāva brahmaṇo rūpe
mūrtaṃ caivāmūrtaṃ ca
martyaṃ cāmṛtaṃ ca
sthitaṃ ca yac ca
sac ca tyaṃ ca
Verily, there are two forms of Brahman,
the formed and the formless,
the mortal and the immortal,
the unmoving and the moving,
the manifested/real/actual (sat) and This one/Him (sya).
BṛĀrUp. 2.3.1
This immortal entity is veiled by the real (manifest):
tad etad amṛtaṃ satyena channam
the vital breath (prāṇa) is the immortal entity,
prāṇo vā amṛtam
and name and form are the real (manifest-satya),
nāmarūpe satyam
and by them the immortal entity is covered.
tābhyām ayaṃ prāṇaś channaḥ
BrhUp 1.6.3
seyaṃ devataikṣata hantāhamimāstisro devatā anena
jīvenātmanānupraviśya nāmarūpe vyākaravāṇīti
ChUp 6.3.2
‘That deity willed, ‘Well, let me enter into these three deities (viz. fire, water and earth) - by mean of this living self (Jivatman) - and develop names and forms.
(Note: Sat is the primary being - fire is its first creation - out of fire comes water - out of water comes food, [this earth is food, since it is on her that all food ripens - SBr 7.4.2.1].
All the manifestations of the world derive from these three elements/deities).
The same way, my dear, that by one lump of clay, all that is made of clay becomes known, the difference being only a name arising from speech, while the truth is that it is just clay.
ChUp 6.1.4
____________________

As you can see below, the definition of Nāma is not the same than Buddha's one:

"The Rgveda is name, and so are the Yajurveda, the Samaveda, the Atharvana as the fourth, the corpus of histories and ancient tales as the Veda among the Vedas, ancestral rites, mathematics, soothsaying, the art of locating treasures, the dialogues, the monologues, the science of gods, the science of the ritual, the science of spirits, the science of government, the science of heavenly bodies, and the science of serpent beings. All that is nothing but name. So, venerate the name."
ChUp 7.1.4

"The sacred hymns are included in name and sacred works in the sacred hymns".
ChUp 7.4.1

----

And the naming process is also quite different:

"Will (saṃkalpa) surely is greater than the manas (mano). Verily, when one wills, then one thinks in his manas (manasyatyatha), then he utters speech, and he utters it in a name".
ChUp 7.4.1

Note: the manas (mano,) is not circumscribed to the saḷāyatana nidāna in Veda. It is part of the all encompassing self.

In Buddhism, the manifested (mental) naming process of nāma — the "real" mental process, so to speak — starts with the four mental khandhas in the nāma-rūpa nidāna.
These four mental khandhas are "sankharized" and presented as a pure mental dhamma, to the saḷāyatana nidāna.
Moreover, the process is internalized through phasso (contact/transference) in satta - and ends up with manasikara+cetanā (aka a manosañcetana).
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
Consciousness in the viññāṇa nidāna is then "updated", so to speak.
Note: this consciousness in the viññāṇa nidāna being "not yours"; what will descend in the nāma-rūpa nidāna - as a result of your manosañcetana - will never be what you expected.
"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need" - sings the anoperineal jerk who it seems, has a great sympathy for Mara - (who indeed greatly rewarded him - and avoided to explain to the said jerk, how it really works).

_________________


Rūpa takes on the three meanings of the suttas - that is to say:
- mahābhūtāna rūpa (fire, water, earth, air) — physical.
- upādāya rūpa (The "forms derived" from them [e.g. a tree] — physical).
- bāhirāni āyatanāni rūpa (the "sight" [e.g. of a tree] — nothing physical - a mere form or appearance).
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Mr. Seek
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Image
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:29 pm
what do you think ceisiwr? :twothumbsup:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:21 am ...

Please kindly let me take the liberty of commenting on the picture that it seems a little bit too heady :lol:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
asahi
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by asahi »

Does not (mind n matter) & (mentality n materiality) not synonymous ? :thinking:
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Pulsar
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Pulsar »

Mr Seek your images are quite clever... Rupa is created in the mind during mental proliferation, naming it binds you to samsara, gets you involved in DO. You wrote
name and form are inseparable.
How quaint? another way of putting it. Folks wrongly think rupa in DO is solid matter. Do deals with mental creations of suffering only.
Asahi wrote
Does not (mind n matter) & (mentality n materiality) not synonymous ?
They are not. They refer to two separate linked events in DO.
However I am not sure whether OP's question refers to Paticca samuppada. The way it is worded, I am not quite sure. But perhaps it is, he writes
so the same figure got seven different types of Nama-rupa for seven different people.
Hence we are living in a world of Nama-rupa created by ourselves.
This is true.

With love :candle:
Mr. Seek
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:21 pm Mr Seek your images are quite clever... Rupa is created in the mind during mental proliferation, naming it binds you you to samsara, gets you involved in DO.
Thank you, thank you. Yes, it seems. Snp 4.11 (Quarrels and Disputes) and Snp 5.16 (Pingiya's Questions) led me to this conclusion. In the former, it's clearly said that form (rūpa), pleasure and pain (dukkha, sukha), are just objectification-classifications (papañcasaṅkhā) dependent on apperception (sañña). In the latter discourse, Pingiya, after complaining of old age taking its toll on his body, is told to let go of rūpa, is told that people suffer on account of their rūpa.
Pulsar wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:21 pmYou wrote "name and form are inseparable". How quaint?
Yeah. Not my idea though. Found it in one of Alexander Wynne's books. Apparently it's older than Buddhism.

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Pulsar
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Re: What is Nama-rupa?

Post by Pulsar »

Mr Seek wrote
Thank you, thank you. Yes, it seems. Snp 4.11 (Quarrels and Disputes).
Sn 4..11 taught me how to correct my wrong understanding of DO. It is one of the earliest explanations of DO, with no corruption whatsoever. With time as sectarianism advanced, folks thought DO was about Buddha trying to explain Rebirth. Looks like most believed in rebirth then. What was there to explain?
DO applies to every moment of our lives, how forms, (meaning shapes, sounds, fragrances, touches, tastes, imaginations of the mind haunt us, during mental proliferation) For instance sound is immaterial but is derived from solid things bumping into each other. Therefore form (rupa) in DO is not material, but is immaterial, yet is derived from the 4 great elements.
When we get stuck on these forms, by labelling these... we go round and round.
You wrote
and Snp 5.16 (Pingiya's Questions) led me to this conclusion. In the former, it's clearly said that form (rūpa), pleasure and pain (dukkha, sukha), are just objectification-classifications (papañcasaṅkhā) dependent on apperception (sañña). In the latter discourse, Pingiya, after complaining of old age taking its toll on his body, is told to let go of rūpa, is told that people suffer on account of their rūpa.
Thanks for pointing this out, I had read Snp 5.16, but this particular phrase? wow, it is nice to be with someone who pays attention to such.
Pingiya's praises of Buddha are unforgettable.
You wrote regarding the images
Yeah. Not my idea though. Found it in one of Alexander Wynne's books. Apparently it's older than Buddhism
Your excerpt is referring to Mythology. I am not sure whether it is older than Buddhism. Mythology survived on the truths that they fancifully elaborated. Many of Buddha's teachings were snuck into the Upanisad, or Jain types of literature, which creates confusion for Buddhists.
With love :candle:
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