how not to cling to consciousness?

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confusedlayman
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how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by confusedlayman »

in sariputt to anandapindika on his death bed, he instructed him like dont cling to conciousness

does that mean there is subject object view and someone is there to cling to something or not clinging to consciousness means not thinking of same mind object again and again for second time onwards or how to understand it?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by Sam Vara »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm in sariputt to anandapindika on his death bed, he instructed him like dont cling to conciousness

does that mean there is subject object view and someone is there to cling to something or not clinging to consciousness means not thinking of same mind object again and again for second time onwards or how to understand it?
I think it means that he is to abandon thoughts of being or having any particular consciousness in the future.
“But sir, can there be different kinds of desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates?”

“There can,” said the Buddha.

“It’s when someone thinks: ‘In the future, may I be of such form, such feeling, such perception, such choices, or such consciousness!’ That’s how there can be different kinds of desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/sujato
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by form »

Conscious aggregates do not exist on its own.
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by Inedible »

Consciousness is one of the five aggregates. You start with form and feelings and end up with perceptions, impulses, and consciousness.

Then there are the six senses, including mind. You have the objects of the senses, the perception of the objects, and a type of consciousness which does the perceiving.

It is easy to see that the objects we can be conscious of depend on causes and that they change given enough time. They pass away. It is harder to see that consciousness also depends on causes, is not continuous, and will pass away. We constantly shift from one type of consciousness to another. The brain has to work very hard to weave everything together to give the impression of continuity. And I think this is what we are told to stop grasping.
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Post by sunnat »

Chachakka Sutta -

"Now, bhikkhus, this is the way leading to the cessation of identity...

"One regards the mind thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. One regards mind-objects thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. One regards mind-consciousness thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. One regards mind-contact thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. One regards mind-feeling thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’. One regards mind-craving thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self’."


"Bhikkhus, dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is mind-contact; with mind-contact as condition there arises [a mind-feeling] felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant mind-feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful mind-feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that mind-feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible."
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by pegembara »

How do you define consciousness? Do you mean how not to cling to experience ie. nama-rupa? Letting go of sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, feelings, thoughts, dreams ... basically, everything that you experience. Being "dead to the world".
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In the suttas
In SN 22.79, the Buddha distinguishes consciousness in the following manner:

"And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness."
"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet.
However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
If you were to take consciousness and namarupa as conjoined, it would mean allowing the feeling/sense contact/namarupa/consciousness to cease and that includes the perception of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness.
That would take one to the Unconditioned since all the aforementioned are sankharas, therefore conditioned.
"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html'
Last edited by pegembara on Mon May 17, 2021 3:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm in sariputt to anandapindika on his death bed, he instructed him like dont cling to conciousness
MN 143 treats all objects of non-clinging equally, unlike u that is clinging to consciousness by regarding consciousness as something special and more special than other things
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm subject object
sounds like Hinduism. where does Buddha speak of subject-object? :roll:
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm someone is there to cling to something or not clinging to consciousness means not thinking of same mind object again and again for second time onwards or how to understand it?
clinging is sankhara aggregate. yur obsession with consciousness has u searching in the wrong place; in the wrong aggregate

giving up clinging to consciousness requires giving up clinging. reference to consciousness is not a requirement
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by confusedlayman »

when consciousness is not clinged, still thoughts can be generated but there is no need to generate the same thought again and again out of impulsion..

or thoughts generated should be driven away by force ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by form »

Consciousness, the five aggregates other than form do not exist on their own. Together, they make up our experience. They are both emotive and cognitive. Consciousness will be your thoughts and mental activities, both conscious and unconsciousness. When u see them, u let go without lust, passion and delight, knowing that they are suffering.
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by Dweller »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:03 am when consciousness is not clinged, still thoughts can be generated but there is no need to generate the same thought again and again out of impulsion..

or thoughts generated should be driven away by force ?
Problem can be when informations are stored in not fully conscious parts of mind.

Then, they can appear as unwanted thoughts and patterns of thinking and reactions to events which operate under different logic than conscious mind.

As if they are coming from another sub-personality.

Because, they were stored there when mind was of different quality, perhaps more immature.

Things can be stored there during traumatic events in childhood and continously appear in adult life.

So, in some cases, using our current logic and consciously trying to stop it by any method will not help.

This is a rare example where any buddhist teaching and method was in my case ineffective, compared to my own examination and insight on how to solve the problem.

Which was, however, based on and aided with buddhist practice, but also with some wisdom from psychology.
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:23 am Consciousness, the five aggregates other than form do not exist on their own. Together, they make up our experience. They are both emotive and cognitive. Consciousness will be your thoughts and mental activities, both conscious and unconsciousness. When u see them, u let go without lust, passion and delight, knowing that they are suffering.
thanks so first I recognise it and ignore it?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by form »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
form wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:23 am Consciousness, the five aggregates other than form do not exist on their own. Together, they make up our experience. They are both emotive and cognitive. Consciousness will be your thoughts and mental activities, both conscious and unconsciousness. When u see them, u let go without lust, passion and delight, knowing that they are suffering.
thanks so first I recognise it and ignore it?
Guard the senses till it become natural. Stop at like or dislike, agreeable or disagreeable. Need not carry on to greed and aversion. You will need the whole eight fold path to do it effectively.
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by Alino »

Watch closely...
Do you have a rulership over consciousness? Do you make a decisions of what being vonsciouss of and what to not?

Consciousness don't matter about you, you dont exist for it, it just do its job without you...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am ...
MN 143 treats all objects of non-clinging equally, unlike u that is clinging to consciousness by regarding consciousness as something special and more special than other things
...
Yet when some explain rebirth they talk about a stream of consciousness. They don't regard other things as special as to speak about a stream of their own for them...
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Re: how not to cling to consciousness?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:59 pm in sariputt to anandapindika on his death bed, he instructed him like dont cling to conciousness

does that mean there is ...
It does mean that he instructed him to refrain from what you are doing.
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