Right view and Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Visuddhimagga

Post by ToVincent »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:59 pm what is escape then?
You mean nissāraṇa (escape)?

Some suttas (that have to be checked against parallels for the subject at stake).

------

AN 10.93
"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self .
Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
Yaṃ kho, bhante, kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭic­ca­samup­pannaṃ tadaniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ. ‘Yaṃ dukkhaṃ taṃ netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti - evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ. Tassa ca uttari nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāmī”ti.

-----

MN 7
He understands thus: "There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape ...

------

SN 22.82
Venerable sir, what is the satisfaction, danger, and escape from form, from feelings...
See also MN 13 + other suttas
(many occurences on "taming of interest and greed" and "dispelling of interest and greed" on many elements and other factors).

SA 58 has it as follows:
The disciplining of lustful desire, the abandoning of lustful desire, the going beyond lustful desire for feeling ... etc. – this is called the escape from consciousness."


------

SN 36.6
Because the uninstructed worldling does not know of any escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. When he seeks delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling lies behind this. He does not understand as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings.
Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti. So tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.

------

MN 148
If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and **escape** from that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie latent within one.

------

There is an escape in the world which I have closely touched with discernment. O Evil One, kinsman of the negligent, You do not know that state.
Atthi nissaraṇaṃ loke, paññāya me suphussitaṃ. Pamattabandhu pāpima, na tvaṃ jānāsi taṃ padaṃ.
Sensual pleasures are like sword stakes; The aggregates, their chopping block. What you call sensual delight has become for me non-delight.
SN 5.1

------

:::::::::::
Pali:
:::::::::::


Nissāraṇa [fr.nissarati] [nis+sarati]

Sarati [√ sṛ]
- to go,flow,run,move along.

:::::::::::::::::::
Sanskrit:
:::::::::::::::::::


निःसृ niḥsṛ [ niḥ-√ sṛ ]
- to go out , depart , withdraw MBh. (post Buddhist)

निस् nis
- away, away from, free from.

√ सृ sṛ (cf. √ [ sal ] )
- to run after RV.
- to wish to run TS.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Visuddhimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 3:26 pm
:bow:

:thanks:

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
Dhammavamsa
Posts: 232
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Dhammavamsa »

ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:00 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 10:30 am That's odd, for in the place where deleted posts are stored I don't see any from you that address the questions:
But someone did moderate one of my posts yesterday?
Are you telling me that one of my post wasn't moderated?
Dhammanando wrote:
The only reply is one that talks solely about your interlocutor's drug use and mental state, and contains no sutta citations at all.
I did answer the questions:
- what is this true self?
- Where is it?
- Where did the Buddha teach such a concept?
- When did the Buddha ever say that nibbāna is a true self?

with two answers. Telling Ceisiwr that he didn't seem to understand the difference between a state & whoever experiences it.
Therefore he could not understand my previous answers.

Ceiswr is desperately trying to have people say, that nibbāna is the self.
When Ceiswr asks "When did the Buddha ever say that nibbāna is a true self?" — what can one answer? — if nibbāna is not to be equated with the self?

He can ask me indefinitely this question — I can't answer a flawed question.

The problem with Ceisiwr, is that his questions are defective, for the most part.

As far as the two last questions - (if I can answer a semi-flawed question) - there is a sutta that I will be glad to PM to some people on this forum. And I advised Ceiswr to find it.
And particularly I will tell them, if they don't grasp it right away, why Buddha didn't deny, nor could speak about it.

Why should I give the reference of a sutta, to someone who does not understand the difference between nibbāna and the self?
.
.
No. He didn't said that.
Deleted
ToVincent
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by ToVincent »

Dhammavams wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 4:07 pm ...
No. He didn't said that.
You seem to have a good memory.
Why don't you tell us exactly what I said.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Visuddhimagga

Post by confusedlayman »

ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 3:26 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:59 pm what is escape then?
You mean nissāraṇa (escape)?

Some suttas (that have to be checked against parallels for the subject at stake).

------

AN 10.93
"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self .
Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
Yaṃ kho, bhante, kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭic­ca­samup­pannaṃ tadaniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ. ‘Yaṃ dukkhaṃ taṃ netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti - evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ. Tassa ca uttari nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāmī”ti.

-----

MN 7
He understands thus: "There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape ...

------

SN 22.82
Venerable sir, what is the satisfaction, danger, and escape from form, from feelings...
See also MN 13 + other suttas
(many occurences on "taming of interest and greed" and "dispelling of interest and greed" on many elements and other factors).

SA 58 has it as follows:
The disciplining of lustful desire, the abandoning of lustful desire, the going beyond lustful desire for feeling ... etc. – this is called the escape from consciousness."


------

SN 36.6
Because the uninstructed worldling does not know of any escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. When he seeks delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling lies behind this. He does not understand as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings.
Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti. So tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.

------

MN 148
If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and **escape** from that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie latent within one.

------

There is an escape in the world which I have closely touched with discernment. O Evil One, kinsman of the negligent, You do not know that state.
Atthi nissaraṇaṃ loke, paññāya me suphussitaṃ. Pamattabandhu pāpima, na tvaṃ jānāsi taṃ padaṃ.
Sensual pleasures are like sword stakes; The aggregates, their chopping block. What you call sensual delight has become for me non-delight.
SN 5.1

------

:::::::::::
Pali:
:::::::::::


Nissāraṇa [fr.nissarati] [nis+sarati]

Sarati [√ sṛ]
- to go,flow,run,move along.

:::::::::::::::::::
Sanskrit:
:::::::::::::::::::


निःसृ niḥsṛ [ niḥ-√ sṛ ]
- to go out , depart , withdraw MBh. (post Buddhist)

निस् nis
- away, away from, free from.

√ सृ sṛ (cf. √ [ sal ] )
- to run after RV.
- to wish to run TS.
.
.
so just thinking it is non self is escape?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Pondera
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:03 pm
ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:00 pmCeiswr is desperately trying to have people say, that nibbāna is the self.
I don't think so...
Oh. :clap: what a blessing. You’re still here. Care to explain how consciousness cognizes the “object” of Nibbana despite being relinquished before ever reaching it?

Did that come out right? That’s proper English, yeah?

:rofl:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Visuddhimagga

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:51 am
ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 3:26 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:59 pm what is escape then?
You mean nissāraṇa (escape)?

Some suttas (that have to be checked against parallels for the subject at stake).

------

AN 10.93
"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self .
Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
Yaṃ kho, bhante, kiñci bhūtaṃ saṅkhataṃ cetayitaṃ paṭic­ca­samup­pannaṃ tadaniccaṃ. Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ. ‘Yaṃ dukkhaṃ taṃ netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti - evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ. Tassa ca uttari nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāmī”ti.

-----

MN 7
He understands thus: "There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape ...

------

SN 22.82
Venerable sir, what is the satisfaction, danger, and escape from form, from feelings...
See also MN 13 + other suttas
(many occurences on "taming of interest and greed" and "dispelling of interest and greed" on many elements and other factors).

SA 58 has it as follows:
The disciplining of lustful desire, the abandoning of lustful desire, the going beyond lustful desire for feeling ... etc. – this is called the escape from consciousness."


------

SN 36.6
Because the uninstructed worldling does not know of any escape from painful feeling other than sensual pleasure. When he seeks delight in sensual pleasure, the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling lies behind this. He does not understand as it really is the origin and the passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these feelings.
Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti. So tāsaṃ vedanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti.

------

MN 148
If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and **escape** from that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie latent within one.

------

There is an escape in the world which I have closely touched with discernment. O Evil One, kinsman of the negligent, You do not know that state.
Atthi nissaraṇaṃ loke, paññāya me suphussitaṃ. Pamattabandhu pāpima, na tvaṃ jānāsi taṃ padaṃ.
Sensual pleasures are like sword stakes; The aggregates, their chopping block. What you call sensual delight has become for me non-delight.
SN 5.1

------

:::::::::::
Pali:
:::::::::::


Nissāraṇa [fr.nissarati] [nis+sarati]

Sarati [√ sṛ]
- to go,flow,run,move along.

:::::::::::::::::::
Sanskrit:
:::::::::::::::::::


निःसृ niḥsṛ [ niḥ-√ sṛ ]
- to go out , depart , withdraw MBh. (post Buddhist)

निस् nis
- away, away from, free from.

√ सृ sṛ (cf. √ [ sal ] )
- to run after RV.
- to wish to run TS.
.
.
so just thinking it is non self is escape?
Yes. If you think that the skhandas are “non self” you have approached “knowledge and vision of things as they really are” and you are one, two, three, four steps away from total emancipation (according to transcendental Dependent origination).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
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Re: Visuddhimagga

Post by ToVincent »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:51 am so just thinking it is non self is escape?
First, get rid of the "mine", then get rid of the "I" — which implies the all shebang described in the above suttas — (and as summarized below):
The pleasure and comfortableness that arise from form: this is its gratification.
‘yaṁ kho rūpaṁ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ, ayaṁ rūpassa assādo.

That form is impermanent (& not one's own - the other meaning of anicca), suffering, and subject to change: this is its danger.
Yaṁ rūpaṁ aniccaṁ dukkhaṁ vipariṇāmadhammaṁ, ayaṁ rūpassa ādīnavo.

Removing and giving up desire and greed for form: this is its escape.
Yo rūpasmiṁ chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṁ, idaṁ rūpassa nissaraṇaṁ.

(Idem for the other aggregates)
SN 22.86

------

(Perfect parallel in SA 40 for gratification & danger - quite perfect for escape)

If one disciplines lustful desire, abandons lustful desire, and goes beyond lustful desire for bodily form – this is called the escape from bodily form.
(idem with the other aggregates) .

SA 40

.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:11 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:03 pm
ToVincent wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:00 pmCeiswr is desperately trying to have people say, that nibbāna is the self.
I don't think so...
Oh. :clap: what a blessing. You’re still here. Care to explain how consciousness cognizes the “object” of Nibbana despite being relinquished before ever reaching it?

Did that come out right? That’s proper English, yeah?

:rofl:
Our previous conversation indicates to me that you are far too uninformed to have this conversation with me. That you celebrate your uninformedness and praise your own incompetent arguments, unable to recognize them for what they are, confirms this. This is the last I'll speak to you on the forum. You are not ready for the caliber of conversation and how much correction you require. You think unbuddhist fool's doctrines like "Thinking = Self" and "Theravādins don't think Nibbāna is a dhamma." You are not ready to have a conversation with me, because I only converse with equals or superiors. You are neither of those. I won't play baity "Ask me nonsense questions and I'll tell you that the Buddhas and sentient beings can't think because they don't have cognition because they don't have selves." Your question to me was incredibly uninformed and, dare I say, stupid. I know I am correct in this and feel no need to listen to imput from you on the matter, as you have proven yourself a frivolous dilettante in my eyes; one unfamiliar with basic elements of the Dhammavinaya as preserved by the Theravādin sect, that Nibbāna is a dhamma and that jhāna is without bodily senses; unknowing of the Buddha's teaching on the five aggregates, including cognition and how none of the five aggregates constitutes "a self;" and unready for the teaching on anattatā generally.

Educate yourself. Remember when you spent months hassling Ceisiwr telling him that disembodied jhānas "weren't Theravādin?" Then, you had to do this:
Pondera wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:35 amI apologize to Ceisiwr. In the “Classical” sense - jhana is as he described.
Once you take even a second of time to read a single sutta to do with cognition, you will see that cognition does not constitute a self in either Theravāda Buddhism or the Pāli suttas and will be posting more in that tone. Once you read any mainstream Theravādin talking about Nibbāna and use even a smidgen of mindfulness, you will realize they are talking about a particular dhamma that is a discrete object of cognition that makes contact with the mind-base.

BTW, you are not a stream-entrant. You won't listen to me, you'll listen to your cakra Dalai Lama brain hokum, but there's more truth from me to you, the last of such communication that will take place, that you are also not yet ready for. One further last point, if someone tells you their name means "dragon fire blade," that is a not a real person's name from an actual human culture. If anyone were named that, it is a name they gave themselves and chose themselves, or their parents are mentally unwell. Names and human cultures don't "work like that." "Dragon Fire Blade" is a name perhaps from some nonsense fantasy land that someone like "Fireblade, Father of Wyverns," has. No real person in a real human culture has a name like "dragon fire blade." My name certainly doesn't mean that, and you've never been told that it means that. You've never been told I was Welsh either. You made all that up on your own. It's the strangest thing. Goodbye.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:08 pm My name certainly doesn't mean that, and you've never been told that it means that.
I wonder what your name means?


I'm addicted to coffee
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Coëmgenu »

The first part, caoimh, means "companion," "gentleman," "sweet person," or "noble person." Ghín is a cognate with the English "gene" and the Latin "genus." My DhammaWheel avatar is just my name in Latin. In all, Caoimhghín (an Irish version of "Kevin") means "of gentlemen's stock," with "stock" in the sense of "genetic stock." If you don't know what "genetic stock" means, imagine "gene soup."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Contact:

Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

cool

:coffee:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Enjoy your coffee.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3071
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Right view and Nibbana

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:08 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:11 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:03 pm I don't think so...
Oh. :clap: what a blessing. You’re still here. Care to explain how consciousness cognizes the “object” of Nibbana despite being relinquished before ever reaching it?

Did that come out right? That’s proper English, yeah?

:rofl:
Our previous conversation indicates to me that you are far too uninformed to have this conversation with me. That you celebrate your uninformedness and praise your own incompetent arguments, unable to recognize them for what they are, confirms this. This is the last I'll speak to you on the forum. You are not ready for the caliber of conversation and how much correction you require. You think unbuddhist fool's doctrines like "Thinking = Self" and "Theravādins don't think Nibbāna is a dhamma." You are not ready to have a conversation with me, because I only converse with equals or superiors. You are neither of those. I won't play baity "Ask me nonsense questions and I'll tell you that the Buddhas and sentient beings can't think because they don't have cognition because they don't have selves." Your question to me was incredibly uninformed and, dare I say, stupid. I know I am correct in this and feel no need to listen to imput from you on the matter, as you have proven yourself a frivolous dilettante in my eyes; one unfamiliar with basic elements of the Dhammavinaya as preserved by the Theravādin sect, that Nibbāna is a dhamma and that jhāna is without bodily senses; unknowing of the Buddha's teaching on the five aggregates, including cognition and how none of the five aggregates constitutes "a self;" and unready for the teaching on anattatā generally.

Educate yourself. Remember when you spent months hassling Ceisiwr telling him that disembodied jhānas "weren't Theravādin?" Then, you had to do this:
Pondera wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:35 amI apologize to Ceisiwr. In the “Classical” sense - jhana is as he described.
Once you take even a second of time to read a single sutta to do with cognition, you will see that cognition does not constitute a self in either Theravāda Buddhism or the Pāli suttas and will be posting more in that tone. Once you read any mainstream Theravādin talking about Nibbāna and use even a smidgen of mindfulness, you will realize they are talking about a particular dhamma that is a discrete object of cognition that makes contact with the mind-base.

BTW, you are not a stream-entrant. You won't listen to me, you'll listen to your cakra Dalai Lama brain hokum, but there's more truth from me to you, the last of such communication that will take place, that you are also not yet ready for. One further last point, if someone tells you their name means "dragon fire blade," that is a not a real person's name from an actual human culture. If anyone were named that, it is a name they gave themselves and chose themselves, or their parents are mentally unwell. Names and human cultures don't "work like that." "Dragon Fire Blade" is a name perhaps from some nonsense fantasy land that someone like "Fireblade, Father of Wyverns," has. No real person in a real human culture has a name like "dragon fire blade." My name certainly doesn't mean that, and you've never been told that it means that. You've never been told I was Welsh either. You made all that up on your own. It's the strangest thing. Goodbye.
Aww. I’ll miss you. So much potential wisdom no longer within my reach. 😢
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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