Are Jataka stories a collection of old Indian stories?

[SarathW]

Greetings Robert,

But you didn't explain why it is not "tit-for-tat".

"Tit for tat"
the infliction of an injury or insult in return for one that one has suffered

Whether accompanying the Dhammapada or the Jataka, the ancient non-canonical "stories" are very much of this nature, with the fruit often being identical to the kamma performed, with a level of prescriptivity about the specifics that is absent from the Sutta. Someone pokes out someone's eye, so in the next life they get their eye poked out... that sort of thing. This way of thinking is dangerous, because that is not how kamma manifests. Kamma and its results should be known, yet all these tall tales do is obscure that...

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the unlimited. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord..."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord..."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment."

"Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.

Why is it a convincing story but the Jataka stories are fallacious?

As above, the Sutta you quoted conforms to the Buddha teachings on kamma, whereas the Jataka Tales are a collection of old Indian stories by puthujjanas, later transposed onto Buddhism.

Metta,
Paul.

Agree.
When I was in school there were few students who had the opportunity to read "Pacatantra"
In my opinion that "Pancatantra" was full of Tit for Tat stories.
The students who study those books behaved in a very crafty and cunning way imitating what is taught in those books.

[robertk]

Agree.
When I was in school there were few students who had the opportunity to read "Pacatantra"
In my opinion that "Pancatantra" was full of Tit for Tat stories.
The students who study those books behaved in a very crafty and cunning way imitating what is taught in those books

Which Jatakas are the Pancatantra'?

[robertk]

Greetings Robert,

But you didn't explain why it is not "tit-for-tat".

"Tit for tat"
the infliction of an injury or insult in return for one that one has suffered

Whether accompanying the Dhammapada or the Jataka, the ancient non-canonical "stories" are very much of this nature, with the fruit often being identical to the kamma performed, with a level of prescriptivity about the specifics that is absent from the Sutta. Someone pokes out someone's eye, so in the next life they get their eye poked out... that sort of thing. This way of thinking is dangerous, because that is not how kamma manifests. Kamma and its results should be known, yet all these tall tales do is obscure that...

)

In the Therigatha about Isidasi we have:

I know my last seven births and what caused
all that has happened to me in this life,
I will tell that to you, listen carefully to it.
I was once a wealthy goldsmith in Erakaccha city,
but my youth made my head spin,
and I had sex with the wife of another.

When I died, I cooked in hell for a long time,
and then rising from there, I entered the womb of a monkey.
A great monkey, the leader of the troop,
castrated me when I was seven days old,
this was the karmic fruit for adultery.

It was in the Sindhava forest where I died,
and then I entered the womb of a one-eyed, lame goat.
As a goat, I was castrated,
and I was always afflicted by vermin,
children rode me for twelve years,
all for my adultery.

After my death as a goat, I was given birth by a cow
belonging to a cattle-trader, a calf with the red color of lac,
I was castrated when I was twelve months old.
I had to draw carts, plows, and wagons,
I was blind, always afflicted, and unhealthy, all for my
adultery.

After my death as a bullock, I was born on the street,
in the household of a slave,
I was neither male or female,
I was the third sex, all for my adultery.

I died when I was thirty and was reborn a carter’s daughter,
in a family that was miserable and poor, always
under attack from many creditors.
When the interest that was owed had accumulated and was
large,
a caravan-leader took me from the house by force,
and dragged me away crying.
His son Giridasa noticed that I had reached puberty
in my sixteenth year and he claimed me as his own.
He already had another wife,
someone virtuous, of good qualities, with a good reputation,
she loved her husband, but I made her hate me.

So it was all the fruit of my karma,
when they all threw me away and left,
even when I waited on them like a slave,
but now I have put an end to all that

Perhaps this sutta is a good example of the fruits of kamma: it still shows a strong relation with the kamma performed and the type of results .

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Robert,

Perhaps this sutta is a good example of the fruits of kamma: it still shows a strong relation with the kamma performed and the type of results .

Or, perhaps not.

In the Thera-Theri Gatha there is internal evidence that reveals the hand of the invisible compiler such as the presence of duplicate names in the text, ascription of identical stanzas to separate theras and the repetition of stanzas.

Moreover, some of the writings now found in the Dhammpada, Thera Gatha and Theri Gatha has been scattered over the Nikayas before they were finally incorporated into the present texts by the learned compilers.

Scholars conclude that the verses collected in the Thera-Theri Gatha were uttered over a period of 300 years, from the end of the sixth century to the middle of of the third century BC.

During these centuries gathas were probably added onto the original stock or underwent alteration. A selection and revision were done at the Third Council in Pataliputta, and it is this version that has come down to us.

Some gathas, of course, suggest that they come to us almost in the form they were uttered, while others reveal the hand of a compiler or literary composer. Mrs. Rhys Davids points out that the verses of Theri Sumedha and Theri Isidasi show unmistakable signs of literary craft.

It would appear that alas, the Therigatha and most likely the Theragatha also contain "unmistakable signs of literary craft".

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Metta,
Paul.

[robertk]

During these centuries gathas were probably added onto the original stock or underwent alteration. A selection and revision were done at the Third Council in Pataliputta, and it is this version that has come down to us.

Some gathas, of course, suggest that they come to us almost in the form they were uttered, while others reveal the hand of a compiler or literary composer. Mrs. Rhys Davids points out that the verses of Theri Sumedha and Theri Isidasi show unmistakable signs of literary craft

These scholars are impressive. They know which suttas in a collection at the time of the 3rd council, over 2200 years ago are fake , and which are not.

Quite astounding when you consider that the Bhikkhus at the 3rd council were speaking a language they used daily and yet were all fooled.

[Dweller]

Theories are often presented as truths, even when there is no hard evidence for them.

If something was even not in the Canon, who is there to prove that it was made up later and not just a teaching already known to Sangha but for some other reason not added to Canon before?

[robertk]

Greetings Robert,

Perhaps this sutta is a good example of the fruits of kamma: it still shows a strong relation with the kamma performed and the type of results .

Or, perhaps not.

In the Thera-Theri Gatha there is internal evidence that reveals the hand of the invisible compiler such as the presence of duplicate names in the text, ascription of identical stanzas to separate theras and the repetition of stanzas.

Moreover, some of the writings now found in the Dhammpada, Thera Gatha and Theri Gatha has been scattered over the Nikayas before they were finally incorporated into the present texts by the learned compilers.

Scholars conclude that the verses collected in the Thera-Theri Gatha were uttered over a period of 300 years, from the end of the sixth century to the middle of of the third century BC.

During these centuries gathas were probably added onto the original stock or underwent alteration. A selection and revision were done at the Third Council in Pataliputta, and it is this version that has come down to us.

Some gathas, of course, suggest that they come to us almost in the form they were uttered, while others reveal the hand of a compiler or literary composer. Mrs. Rhys Davids points out that the verses of Theri Sumedha and Theri Isidasi show unmistakable signs of literary craft.

It would appear that alas, the Therigatha and most likely the Theragatha also contain "unmistakable signs of literary craft".

According to David other scholars think the Therigatha was not fake:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40496

afaik, most EBT scholars and experts place them in the EBTs. Sujato and Brahmali count them as EBT.

In Thomas Rhys Davids' account, it's right up there with the Sutta Nipata, which is considered old / original Dhamma-Vinaya.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Pali_Canon

Typically the EBTs consist of: The first four Nikayas in their entirety as Buddhavacana, plus the following books from the Khuddaka Nikaya: Dhammapada, Udana, Itivuttaka, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, and Therigatha; and the Patimokkha from the Vinaya.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the reliability of the opinions of Mrs Rhys davids and Edmund Jayasuriya .