What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:35 am Please read Chanda Sutta to confirm that desire is the one that initiates you to practice Satipathana which leads you to the state of Sotapanna.
It leads the mind to satipatthana and not what you previous said that it leads to sotappana. You previously said desiring to be a sotappana is the path to sotappana. The Chanda Sutta says:
There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on the body in and of itself, any desire for the body is abandoned. From the abandoning of desire, the deathless is realized.
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:39 am In Buddhism when we use the word Chanda in isolation it generally refers to desire that arises from wisdom and intelligence.
chanda refers to a "devotion". "desire" is a dangerous translation
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:27 am A word from Ajahn Jayasaro which I really agree with :

"Western presentations of Buddhist teachings have often led to the understanding that suffering arises because of desire, and therefore you shouldn’t desire anything. Whereas in fact the Buddha spoke of two kinds of desire: desire that arises from ignorance and delusion which is called taṇhā – craving – and desire that arises from wisdom and intelligence, which is called kusala-chanda, or dhamma-chanda, or most simply chanda. Chanda doesn’t mean this exclusively, but in this particular case I’m using chanda to mean wise and intelligent desire and motivation, and the Buddha stressed that this is absolutely fundamental to any progress on the Eightfold Path."

Source: https://amaravati.org/skilful-desires/
the above is misleading and unrelated to anything "Western"

imagine desire is measured in terms of "psi' ("pounds per square inch"). the above makes it sound like tanha and dhamma-chanda have the same "psi", similar to the desire of evil Hitler vs the desire of the saviour Allies in WW2

in reality, if the "psi" of tanha is 100, the "psi" of Right Chanda is "1"

for example, the "psi" of a clumsy meditator attempting to direct the mind towards the breathing is "25" although for suppressors can be "50"
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:25 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:39 am In Buddhism when we use the word Chanda in isolation it generally refers to desire that arises from wisdom and intelligence.
chanda refers to a "devotion". "desire" is a dangerous translation
Now you are trying your old trick of playing with words.
Desire and devotion are the same.
Kamachanda = Devotion to Kama
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:40 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:25 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:39 am In Buddhism when we use the word Chanda in isolation it generally refers to desire that arises from wisdom and intelligence.
chanda refers to a "devotion". "desire" is a dangerous translation
Now you are trying your old trick of playing with words.
Desire and devotion are the same.
Kamachanda = Devotion to Kama
:thumbsup:
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:40 am Now you are trying your old trick of playing with words.
:strawman: :jedi:
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:40 amDesire and devotion are the same.
Kamachanda = Devotion to Kama
Devotion & desire are not the same.
English Language Learners Definition of devotion
: a feeling of strong love or loyalty : the quality of being devoted. : the use of time, money, energy, etc., for a particular purpose. : prayer, worship, or other religious activities that are done in private rather than in a religious service

Definition of devotion
1a: religious fervor : PIETY

b: an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural

c: a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate (see CORPORATE sense 2) worship of a congregation

2a: the act of dedicating something to a cause, enterprise, or activity : the act of devoting
the devotion of a great deal of time and energy

b: the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal her devotion to the cause
filial devotion

3obsolete : the object of one's devotion
desire

a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen.
"he resisted public desires for choice in education"

strongly wish for or want (something).
"he never achieved :P the status he so desired"
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:00 pm :thumbsup:
no

MN 111 is a very good sutta for intellectually understanding how subtle "chanda iddhipadda" is required to be

everyone agrees there is no thought ("vitakka & vicara") in the 2nd jhana

yet there remains "chandha" and "intention" ("cetana") in the 2nd jhana

this shows how subtle chanda & cetana are, here, where chanda is merely the "devotion" to the jhana and cetana is merely the will to remain in the jhana
MN 111 wrote:Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, he entered and remained in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.

Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

And he distinguished the phenomena in the second absorption one by one: internal confidence and rapture and bliss and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention.

Ye ca dutiye jhāne dhammā—ajjhattaṁ sampasādo ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṁ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṁ sati upekkhā manasikāro—tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn111/en/sujato
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:27 am A word from Ajahn Jayasaro which I really agree with :

"Western presentations of Buddhist teachings have often led to the understanding that suffering arises because of desire, and therefore you shouldn’t desire anything. Whereas in fact the Buddha spoke of two kinds of desire: desire that arises from ignorance and delusion which is called taṇhā – craving – and desire that arises from wisdom and intelligence, which is called kusala-chanda, or dhamma-chanda, or most simply chanda. Chanda doesn’t mean this exclusively, but in this particular case I’m using chanda to mean wise and intelligent desire and motivation, and the Buddha stressed that this is absolutely fundamental to any progress on the Eightfold Path."

Source: https://amaravati.org/skilful-desires/
To cut through the rhetoric above, it is probably best to provide some worldly examples:

1. the tanha to watch porn cannot be compared to the chanda help a poor person

2. the tanha for fame as a movie star cannot be compared to the chanda to keep one's toilet clean

3. the tanha to kill enemies in war cannot be compared to the chanda for non-violence

the strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala is one of having a chanda for GIVING UP & ABANDONING

it is not a chanda for ACQUIRIING an ATTAINMENT

it appears Ajahn Jayasaro has disagreed with his teacher Ajahn Chah, who said in the video below, who says: "you should let go without desire; if there is still desire and the pursuit to do that that is not Nibbana":

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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Everything happens due to cause and condition and even that cause and condition is not you... so if u fabricate thought like i will do this and that then if u stop fabricate those thoughts its peace..

Fabricating thought intentionally due to ignorance (not knowing everything is automatic non self) will create karma

Body grows on own, mind also functiions on own cause and condition.. what is there?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Chanda is necessary for the practice of Jhanas and thus towards Enlightenment as stated in Saccavibhanga Sutta delivered by Arahant Sariputta Mahathera.

Additionally, just sharing this link:
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:05 pm Chanda is necessary for the practice of Jhanas and thus towards Enlightenment as stated in Saccavibhanga Sutta delivered by Arahant Sariputta Mahathera.
No. The Saccavibhanga Sutta does not say chanda is necessary for the practice of Jhanas and thus towards Enlightenment. The Saccavibhanga Sutta says:
MN 141 wrote:It’s when a mendicant generates enthusiasm (chandaṁ), tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.

Idhāvuso, bhikkhu anuppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ anuppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.

uppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ pahānāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities arise.

anuppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ uppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are completed by development.

uppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

This is called right effort.

https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato
The above Four Right Efforts are to be practised in the order they are described. As the jhana suttas say:
SN 48.10 wrote:Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To repeat:
MN 38 wrote:After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhāna....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The primary chanda or devotion is devotion for abandoning & giving up. Therefore, in SN 48.10, the suttas says:
SN 48.10 wrote:"jhana is reached by making letting go the meditation object"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Jhana & enlightenment are not reach by joining social media chatsites and declaring, during the Covid-19 lockdown, because: "I have nothing to do, I desire & I will attain jhana and enlightenment because I desire enlightement". :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by asahi »

It seems by depending on zeal (chanda) concentration can be attained .

They develop the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort.
Chandasamādhipadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṁ iddhipādaṁ bhāveti

https://suttacentral.net/an3.156-162/en/sujato
Mendicants, if a mendicant depends on enthusiasm in order to gain immersion, gain unification of mind,
Chandañce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nissāya labhati samādhiṁ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṁ—
this is called immersion due to enthusiasm.
ayaṁ vuccati chandasamādhi.

https://suttacentral.net/sn51.13/en/sujato
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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asahi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:26 am It seems by developing zeal (chanda) concentration can be attained .

They develop the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort.
Chandasamādhipadhānasaṅkhārasamannāgataṁ iddhipādaṁ bhāveti

https://suttacentral.net/an3.156-162/en/sujato
Chanda certainly leads to concentration but only when chanda is used in a certain way. For example, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa said:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikk ... o_Tree.htm
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:03 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:05 pm Chanda is necessary for the practice of Jhanas and thus towards Enlightenment as stated in Saccavibhanga Sutta delivered by Arahant Sariputta Mahathera.
No. The Saccavibhanga Sutta does not say chanda is necessary for the practice of Jhanas and thus towards Enlightenment. The Saccavibhanga Sutta says:
MN 141 wrote:It’s when a mendicant generates enthusiasm (chandaṁ), tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.

Idhāvuso, bhikkhu anuppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ anuppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.

uppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ pahānāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities arise.

anuppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ uppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

They generate enthusiasm (chandaṁ), try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are completed by development.

uppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati,

This is called right effort.

https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato
The above Four Right Efforts are to be practised in the order they are described. As the jhana suttas say:
SN 48.10 wrote:Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To repeat:
MN 38 wrote:After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhāna....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The primary chanda or devotion is devotion for abandoning & giving up. Therefore, in SN 48.10, the suttas says:
SN 48.10 wrote:"jhana is reached by making letting go the meditation object"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Jhana & enlightenment are not reach by joining social media chatsites and declaring, during the Covid-19 lockdown, because: "I have nothing to do, I desire & I will attain jhana and enlightenment because I desire enlightement". :roll:
Irrelevant. You just replacing the English word for translation, which I doubt it is ever faithful to the original meaning.
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:29 am Irrelevant.
It is relevant. The Buddha taught to use chanda to abandon unwholesome states, which include manufacturing the superstition of a "self" that will attain stream-entry. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa correctly said:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikk ... o_Tree.htm
So now this topic is close to 7 days old, have "you" attained stream-entry yet? :shrug: :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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