Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

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retrofuturist
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:02 am Oh, so you are Sautrāntika...
No. Why is it so hard for people to conceive of following the Buddha's teachings without also ascribing to the orthodoxy of a particular sect?

I will however accept the Suttavadin designation, since that term is synonymous with non-sectarian pursuit of the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

I think in the end it's rather obvious that there is a split on this forum between Theravādins and Suttavādins. With that in mind I think it is important to remember that we share the same scripture, and I assume a same fondness if not love for the same tradition (even if Suttavādins have grumblings about it). Just like the Sarvāstivādins and Sūtrāntikas of old we should and can "live" together", or rather post to and debate each other respectfully. Whilst I may talk of heresies myself, this is in no way born from malice. I merely mean it in terms of being "unorthodox".

Perhaps a thread on some things "modern Theravādins", or rather Suttavādins, and what Theravādins share in common might be beneficial?

Let's not forget that we all share the same Master, Dhamma and Sangha.

:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

If I must relinquish the title of “Theravada Enthusiast” on the basis that I find the Abhidamma utterly tiresome and dry reading - I will happily take on the more refined and tasteful title of “Dhamma-vinaya Enthusiast”.

Are you a Theravadin, Ceisiwr? Have you taken refuge among other Theravadins in the triple gem?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:20 am I think in the end it's rather obvious that there is a split on this forum between Theravādins and Suttavādins. With that in mind I think it is important to remember that we share the same scripture, and I assume a same fondness if not love for the same tradition (even if Suttavādins have grumblings about it). Just like the Sarvāstivādins and Sūtrāntikas of old we should and can "live" together", or rather post to and debate each other respectfully. Whilst I may talk of heresies myself, this is in no way born from malice. I merely mean it in terms of being "unorthodox".

Perhaps a thread on some things "modern Theravādins", or rather Suttavādins, and what Theravādins share in common might be beneficial?

Let's not forget that we all share the same Master, Dhamma and Sangha.

:anjali:
Aha. And yet you must still convince us that the Abhidamma isn’t a pile of useless lists - including arguments and counter arguments against the pugulavadins (which are next to unreadable - and [in any case] don’t make for anything of real interest). Who cares about these endless, documented battles?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:20 am If I must relinquish the title of “Theravada Enthusiast” on the basis that I find the Abhidamma utterly tiresome and dry reading - I will happily take on the more refined and tasteful title of “Dhamma-vinaya Enthusiast”.

Are you a Theravadin, Ceisiwr? Have you taken refuge among other Theravadins in the triple gem?
You don't take refuge in a vāda. I do however take refuge in the Noble Sangha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Who cares about these endless, documented battles?
When you study Buddhist history you realise that we reenact many of them on this page ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:20 am If I must relinquish the title of “Theravada Enthusiast” on the basis that I find the Abhidamma utterly tiresome and dry reading - I will happily take on the more refined and tasteful title of “Dhamma-vinaya Enthusiast”.

Are you a Theravadin, Ceisiwr? Have you taken refuge among other Theravadins in the triple gem?
You don't take refuge in a vāda. I do however take refuge in the Noble Sangha.
Oh really. And in what country did you do this?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:20 am If I must relinquish the title of “Theravada Enthusiast” on the basis that I find the Abhidamma utterly tiresome and dry reading - I will happily take on the more refined and tasteful title of “Dhamma-vinaya Enthusiast”.

Are you a Theravadin, Ceisiwr? Have you taken refuge among other Theravadins in the triple gem?
You don't take refuge in a vāda. I do however take refuge in the Noble Sangha.
Oh really. And in what country did you do this?
The United Kingdom.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am Oh really. And in what country did you do this?
Refuge in a monk that transgresses Vinaya is not refuge in Noble Sangha. Noble Sangha means Sangha that have extinguished self-view more or less.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Aha. And yet you must still convince us that the Abhidamma isn’t a pile of useless lists
Please tell us in detail what happens in a moment of cognition?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Who cares about these endless, documented battles?
When you study Buddhist history you realise that we reenact many of them on this page ;)
I apologize. I’ve read the Theravada - Pugalavada arguments on “Self”. Don’t make me post them here. They’re utterly ridiculous - following a formulaic standard which repeats itself letter after letter with the arguments transversed. It’s nearly unreadable.

I am a very analytic type. I majored in Math. I have a firm understanding of formal logic. The type of argument displayed between the Theravada and Pugalavada Sects on the existence of the self is a tiresome bore that could benefit from a little hardcore ad hominem.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Who cares about these endless, documented battles?
When you study Buddhist history you realise that we reenact many of them on this page ;)
I apologize. I’ve read the Theravada - Pugalavada arguments on “Self”. Don’t make me post them here. They’re utterly ridiculous - following a formulaic standard which repeats itself letter after letter with the arguments transversed. It’s nearly unreadable.

I am a very analytic type. I majored in Math. I have a firm understanding of formal logic. The type of argument displayed between the Theravada and Pugalavada Sects on the existence of the self is a tiresome bore that could benefit from a little hardcore ad hominem.
When is the self experienced? What is it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Aha. And yet you must still convince us that the Abhidamma isn’t a pile of useless lists
Please tell us in detail what happens in a moment of cognition?
Oh. You want to get into “cognition”? That’s a laugh. Let’s look at the suttas. He tastes “bitter” he tastes “sweet” he tastes “pungent” he tastes “bland”. That is why they call it “cognition”.

Funny right? Well that is exactly what the Buddha said about “cognition”. What did he say about “perception”?

He perceives red. He perceives blue. Yellow. White. Thus it is called perception.

Probably not what you were looking for? Okay. I’ll take the bait.

Cognition of what? Let’s take something useful.

Cognition of the three marks upon the skhanda of perception.

A perception independently arises from an external object creating friction upon another external object. We call this “sound”. The mind cognizes “sound”. Within the “sound” the mind further cognizes further realities. It cognizes the mark of ill. It cognizes the mark of impermanence. It cognizes the mark of not-self. The sound disintergarates and the mind in samadhi turns it’s attention to other skhandas as they arise, persist, and fade.

So long as the mind has a sense object to perceive - cognition attaches to that object.

If it attaches with wisdom - it views that perceptual object as ill, impermanent, and not self.

If it attaches with lust - it views it as pleasant, permanent and self.

If it attaches with hate - it views it as painful, a lasting affliction, an approbation of ones self

If it attaches with delusion - it disregards it’s features entirely.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:31 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am

When you study Buddhist history you realise that we reenact many of them on this page ;)
I apologize. I’ve read the Theravada - Pugalavada arguments on “Self”. Don’t make me post them here. They’re utterly ridiculous - following a formulaic standard which repeats itself letter after letter with the arguments transversed. It’s nearly unreadable.

I am a very analytic type. I majored in Math. I have a firm understanding of formal logic. The type of argument displayed between the Theravada and Pugalavada Sects on the existence of the self is a tiresome bore that could benefit from a little hardcore ad hominem.
When is the self experienced? What is it?
Why would you rely on my insight for an answer. We’ve both read the debate in the abhidamma. Shouldn’t it be clear from that debate? It’s right there in the Kathavattu.

Feel free to post a refutation from that piece. I personally find it utterly confounding, formulaic, dry, unimpressive, nothing akin to the Buddha, unconvincing, hard to read, obscured, untraceable, and a few other words I don’t have the lexicon for - but I’m sure you’re prepared to defend it!!! :tongue:
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Re: Retrofuturist's Brief Sutta-Based Refutation of Abhidhamma

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:23 am Who cares about these endless, documented battles?
When you study Buddhist history you realise that we reenact many of them on this page ;)
I apologize. I’ve read the Theravada - Pugalavada arguments on “Self”. Don’t make me post them here. They’re utterly ridiculous - following a formulaic standard which repeats itself letter after letter with the arguments transversed. It’s nearly unreadable.

I am a very analytic type. I majored in Math. I have a firm understanding of formal logic. The type of argument displayed between the Theravada and Pugalavada Sects on the existence of the self is a tiresome bore that could benefit from a little hardcore ad hominem.
Abhidhamma Pitaka is the analytical part of the Dhamma. It dissects the concepts such as aggregates, types of kamma, definition and underlying meaning of phrase that mentioned in the Suttas. Furthermore, Abhidhamma Pitaka and the commentaries were accepted by the Arahants since the ancient times with the original orthodox Mahasangha (Theravada). The other schools that split themselves from Theravada were schismatic and of no Arahants at all.

You majored in maths and with logic thinking, yet you find Abhidhamma boring. I wonder what your profession has anything to do with Pariyatti. To me, this is just like putting SJW stuff in a military recruitment ad like what USA did recently.
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