Two aspects of rupa?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

(Note: i have no idea what happen, the post I submitted is not display, but the table shows i have posted, anyway, here is repost.)
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:09 am The stock description of rupa in the suttas goes like this:
"The four great elements, and form derived from them."
"Cattaro ca mahabhuta, cattunanca maha bhutanam upadayarupam."

What's your understanding of the distinction being made here? What do these two aspects of rupa represent, practically speaking?
Your have stated very clear that your take is literal meaning of the term of “earth, water, fire and air”. And I respect that.

I believe your take for 'air' is the element and 'wind' as the form then?
If not, assume that one does hold such opinion.

Not just anyone, I also not intentionally, did also make mistake; because for me, in Chinese, the term is wind for the element itself.

Here's my mistake when I write in this post The word should be Air, not wind, I got mixed up to take the effect of the product of the characteristics of air as primary element.
4. ‘Element of Air’ or motion (to be perceived and experienced as motion or pressure)
Say that you and a friend are in a room, close door; no fan, no air-conditioning.
Can you hear air? Not possible.
When your friend speaks, you experience your friend’s voice as in air or air motion as in vibration?

Even if you take the 4 th element as wind, when you stand in front of a table fan that is mechanically soundless, you can not hear wind, not until the wind hit an object and causes vibration, a kind of small amplitude motion - sound vibration.

Assuming that the air movement (motion) that is very powerful, what you hear is the vibration of air particle’s vibration within the wind (air motion). Even if you were to assume that wind is a single object as a whole; for one to able to hear the wind of the table fan, his ear drum probably has to the size of a human, if it does generate enough vibration and not as mere pressure. The amplitude that is produce by a single blade of the fan is too big for our ear.

“nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ

Since the ear sense sphere cognizes motion; not air, not wind.
Being not Wind, therefore not form.
i don't see how is form going to cover motion.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

When I walk by the sea, the wind is often blowing from the ocean. What I actually experience is a cool, light pressure on my skin.

With this example I would say that the wind is mahabhuta, and derived form (rupa) is the cool, light pressure on my skin.
You could say that rupa is how the mahabhuta impacts me personally.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:42 am When I walk by the sea, the wind is often blowing from the ocean. What I actually experience is a cool, light pressure on my skin.

With this example I would say that the wind is mahabhuta, and derived form (rupa) is the cool, light pressure on my skin.
You could say that rupa is how the mahabhuta impacts me personally.
Your very example says that body/touch (tactile) sense sphere cognizes temperature, pressure.

What exactly and through what medium then, the ear sense sphere cognizes?
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:03 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:42 am When I walk by the sea, the wind is often blowing from the ocean. What I actually experience is a cool, light pressure on my skin.

With this example I would say that the wind is mahabhuta, and derived form (rupa) is the cool, light pressure on my skin.
You could say that rupa is how the mahabhuta impacts me personally.
Your very example says that body/touch (tactile) sense sphere cognizes temperature, pressure.

What exactly and through what medium then, the ear sense sphere cognizes?
I don't think the suttas go into that. But using the walk by the sea scenario again, I hear the sound (form) of the breaking waves (water element).
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:42 am
Or, can i take that you have understood what I said.
Can you explain then, how is coolness, pressure, motion being define as form.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:14 pm I don't think the suttas go into that. But using the walk by the sea scenario again, I hear the sound (form) of the breaking waves (water element).
The underline, you are sure sutta does not mention solidity, watery..?

For the sound, what is the medium.

Sorry for asking friend, are you synthesizing your abhidhamma?
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:20 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:14 pm I don't think the suttas go into that. But using the walk by the sea scenario again, I hear the sound (form) of the breaking waves (water element).
The underline, you are sure sutta does not mention solidity, watery..?

For the sound, what is the medium.
I suppose the medium for sound would be the space element, though that only appears in a couple of places in the suttas.

In any case, it appears that the sounds we hear are derived from the elements, as with the sound of breaking waves example.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm I suppose the medium for sound would be the space element, though that only appears in a couple of places in the suttas.

In any case, it appears that the sounds we hear are derived from the elements, as with the sound of breaking waves example.
No, most people knows very well that air particle is the medium for sound. In the sutta, the characteristics of the air is motion.

What is interesting is, 2500 yrs ago, sutta can includes air and motion description. We study in school that sound is the product of vibration, and ear drum vibration resonating that sound vibration.

In fact, in reality, there is no such thing as sound, only vibration, resonating and cognition.

Despite your common sense knows what it is, yet you choose to grasp on your interpretation.

Friend, you are falling into the cenerio of creating your own abhidhamma. Or, you are playing game with me, huh :roll:
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 pm I suppose the medium for sound would be the space element, though that only appears in a couple of places in the suttas.

In any case, it appears that the sounds we hear are derived from the elements, as with the sound of breaking waves example.
No, most people knows very well that air particle is the medium for sound. In the sutta, the characteristics of the air is motion.

What is interesting is, 2500 yrs ago, sutta can includes air and motion description. We study in school that sound is the product of vibration, and ear drum vibration resonating that sound vibration.

In fact, in reality, there is no such thing as sound, only vibration, resonating and cognition.

Despite your common sense knows what it is, yet you choose to grasp on your interpretation.

Friend, you are falling into the cenerio of creating your own abhidhamma. Or, you are playing game with me, huh :roll:
I think that what I'm saying is correct according to the suttas. If you disagree with my explanation, then please reference appropriate suttas to make your case.
I'm aware of modern scientific explanations, but that's not what we're discussing here.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:17 pm I think that what I'm saying is correct according to the suttas.
If you so choose to discard the description on the characteristics part of rūpa in the sutta, there is no problem with me. We just have to agree to disagree.

Have a good day.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:29 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:17 pm I think that what I'm saying is correct according to the suttas.
If you so choose to discard the description on the characteristics part of rūpa in the sutta, there is no problem with me. We just have to agree to disagree.

Have a good day.
I'm not clear what you mean. What exactly is the "characteristics part of rupa"?
Could you provide a couple of brief sutta references to illustrate your point?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm I'm not clear what you mean. What exactly is the "characteristics part of rupa"?
kakkhaḷaṁ kharigataṁ for earth, and so on.
These are the ones that are phenomena.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm I'm not clear what you mean. What exactly is the "characteristics part of rupa"?
kakkhaḷaṁ kharigataṁ for earth, and so on.
MN 28 is a long Sutta. Which bit are you talking about?
Also I'm not clear which of the two rupa aspects you're talking about now - is it the mahabhuta or is it derived rupa?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Two aspects of rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:58 pm MN 28 is a long Sutta. Which bit are you talking about?
Also I'm not clear which of the two rupa aspects you're talking about now - is it the mahabhuta or is it derived rupa?
There is a thing call find word in chrome ;)

From my perspective, the "and" condition does not creates two aspect of rupa, only the phenomenon of permutation, ie. a combination of partial or whole of rupa's characteristics, in various formations.

Anyway, i don't thing there is anything that i can say further. Lets call it a day. :toast:
Post Reply