Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

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robertk
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Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by robertk »

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40432&p=626597#p626597
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:42 pm Edmund Jayasuriya wrote:In the Thera-Theri Gatha there is internal evidence that reveals the hand of the invisible compiler such as the presence of duplicate names in the text, ascription of identical stanzas to separate theras and the repetition of stanzas.

Moreover, some of the writings now found in the Dhammpada, Thera Gatha and Theri Gatha has been scattered over the Nikayas before they were finally incorporated into the present texts by the learned compilers.

Scholars conclude that the verses collected in the Thera-Theri Gatha were uttered over a period of 300 years, from the end of the sixth century to the middle of of the third century BC.

During these centuries gathas were probably added onto the original stock or underwent alteration. A selection and revision were done at the Third Council in Pataliputta, and it is this version that has come down to us.

Some gathas, of course, suggest that they come to us almost in the form they were uttered, while others reveal the hand of a compiler or literary composer. Mrs. Rhys Davids points out that the verses of Theri Sumedha and Theri Isidasi show unmistakable signs of literary craft.
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:42 pmIt would appear that alas, the Therigatha and most likely the Theragatha also contain "unmistakable signs of literary craft".
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robertk
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by robertk »

Just wondering if all "early Buddhism" scholars agree with mrs Rhys Davids and Edmund?
SarathW
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by SarathW »

I think that the whole Tipitaka is made by some schorly monks.
But does it stop you from attaining Nibbana with the aid of these theses?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by form »

The whole nikaya will have added materials here and there from myths and fashions of that era to suit the thinking of the people at that time.
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by SarathW »

form wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:57 am The whole nikaya will have added materials here and there from myths and fashions of that era to suit the thinking of the people at that time.
That is why Buddha said that you have to realise it yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by form »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:25 am
form wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:57 am The whole nikaya will have added materials here and there from myths and fashions of that era to suit the thinking of the people at that time.
That is why Buddha said that you have to realise it yourself.
This is confirmed. Trained hard. Wisdom, ethics, concentration.
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?
Do they also agree that the entire Buddhist canon is faked up?
It had to, right? when you think of the method of transmission, considering the physical death of those monks
that remembered the most, loss of critical suttas, or the gradual death of memory of those that
remembered but lived to transmit the content of a semi lost memory. Imagine the politics too.
But the miracle is in spite of what was lost in transmission, or the newly fabricated suttas that fed words into Buddha's mouth or fed words into Sariputta's mouth that contradicted original truths, and the politics,
the miracle is, for the percipient ones, who are able to brush the rubbish aside, Buddha still lives in the words of the buddhist canon, that is
good enough to lead us to the end of suffering. So does Kaccana and Sariputta live in these words, as satellites
of the Buddha.
  • Likewise in the Therigatha and Theragatha, the spirit of those sought and found, lives
beautiful enough to inspire ones reading them.
With love :candle:
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:14 am Just wondering if all "early Buddhism" scholars agree with mrs Rhys Davids and Edmund?

I too wonder why all "early Buddhism" scholars have to agree with the writings of the souler mrs Rhys Davids who said something like (not verbatim): "the Buddhist Monks don't even know the anatta that they are preaching about all the time, they don't know about the soul." With that in perspective, didn't she also say: "it would appear that alas, the pali cannon also contain unmistakable signs of literary craft related to the soul" ? :lol:

On a related note, concerning 'fake up', I used to think regarding pali canon, all entries about literal-rebirths & Buddha's encounters with all the heavenly-beings are "fake-ups"; but now I'm quite convinced that these are Buddha's actual sayings.

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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by robertk »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:43 pm
robertk wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:14 am Just wondering if all "early Buddhism" scholars agree with mrs Rhys Davids and Edmund?

I too wonder why all "early Buddhism" scholars have to agree with the writings of the souler mrs Rhys Davids who said something like (not verbatim): "the Buddhist Monks don't even know the anatta that they are preaching about all the time, they don't know about the soul." With that in perspective, didn't she also say: "it would appear that alas, the pali cannon also contain unmistakable signs of literary craft related to the soul" ? :lol:

On a related note, concerning 'fake up', I used to think regarding pali canon, all entries about literal-rebirths & Buddha's encounters with all the heavenly-beings are "fake-ups"; but now I'm quite convinced that these are Buddha's actual sayings.

:heart:
I cant find much about other scholars opinions on the theri/thera gatha.
Actually couldn't even find any translations and what not that I assume Edmund Jayasuriya did?

I did find background on mrs rhys davids. But couldn't see why she thought the theri/thra showed "unmistakable signs of literary craft"..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Rhys_Davids
After the death of her son in 1917 and her husband in 1922, Rhys Davids turned to Spiritualism. She became particularly involved in various forms of psychic communication with the dead, first attempting to reach her dead son through seances and then through automatic writing. She later claimed to have developed clairaudience, as well as the ability to pass into the next world when dreaming. She kept extensive notebooks of automatic writing, along with notes on the afterlife and diaries detailing her experiences. These notes form part of her archive jointly held by the University of Cambridge[11] and the University of London.[12]
Although earlier in her career she accepted more mainstream beliefs about Buddhist teachings, later in life she rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Wi ... hys_Davids
In 1894 Rhys Davids married Caroline Augusta Foley, a noted Pāli scholar. Unlike his wife, however, Rhys Davids was a critic and opponent of Theosophy.
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SDC
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by SDC »

I do not think the unique manner in which the sayings cleanly describe themes found throughout the other four nikayas is something that could be produced from the conceivings of just any clever writer(s). And anyone whose spent serious time with either text will have a good idea of why it is highly likely that those arahants uttered those words. So if anyone wants to suggest that later writers organized this vast collection of sayings into the works known as the Theragāthā and Therigāthā, that is fine, but those writers would’ve had to have been capable of understanding the consistent direction found in the verses. It would not have been possible to get it right so many times over, and it is unlikely that anyone other than those of great wisdom were responsible for these works.

I certainly wouldn’t expect a scholar’s criteria to be set up to pick up on the signs of this subtlety, which is just another in a long list of reasons why we should always look to our own experience for signs of recognition and progress in Dhamma, not anyone else’s.

Just my 2 pennies.
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by dharmacorps »

I'm re-reading the Therigatha right now so its timely: It wouldn't surprise me if the therigatha and theragatha were compiled by a different person. They are different than the rest of the canon, but still seem to be real statements of monks. I don't think they are fake. We'll never know I suppose.
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:28 pm I do not think the unique manner in which the sayings cleanly describe themes found throughout the other four nikayas is something that could be produced from the conceivings of just any clever writer(s).
...
I found the Sutta Study discussion on the Therigatha verses, and the Therigatha Festival very inspiring. There's certainly a lot of depth in those words. I'm not so inclined as some to just dismiss statements such as those at the end of Isidāsī's, https://suttacentral.net/thig15.1/en/sujato because they don't fit with a rationalized version of Dhamma. I'm more inclined to reflect on what message the sutta is expressing. And it certainly ends with a strong message:
As the fruit of that deed,
they abandoned me and left,
though I served them like a slave.
Now I’ve made an end to this as well.
:heart:
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by DNS »

afaik, most EBT scholars and experts place them in the EBTs. Sujato and Brahmali count them as EBT.

In Thomas Rhys Davids' account, it's right up there with the Sutta Nipata, which is considered old / original Dhamma-Vinaya.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Pali_Canon

Typically the EBTs consist of: The first four Nikayas in their entirety as Buddhavacana, plus the following books from the Khuddaka Nikaya: Dhammapada, Udana, Itivuttaka, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, and Therigatha; and the Patimokkha from the Vinaya.
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Re: Scholars agree: Therigatha and Theragatha are faked up?

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:05 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:28 pm I do not think the unique manner in which the sayings cleanly describe themes found throughout the other four nikayas is something that could be produced from the conceivings of just any clever writer(s).
...
I found the Sutta Study discussion on the Therigatha verses, and the Therigatha Festival very inspiring. There's certainly a lot of depth in those words. I'm not so inclined as some to just dismiss statements such as those at the end of Isidāsī's, https://suttacentral.net/thig15.1/en/sujato because they don't fit with a rationalized version of Dhamma. I'm more inclined to reflect on what message the sutta is expressing. And it certainly ends with a strong message:
As the fruit of that deed,
they abandoned me and left,
though I served them like a slave.
Now I’ve made an end to this as well.
:heart:
Mike
:goodpost:
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