Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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What is your opinion about Abhidhamma and its place in Theravada

We can be sure modern scholars are right that Abhidhamma was not at first council because they use science for their conclusions.
4
4%
Abhidhamma was invented by later monks who put it in with the original texts at the third council.
21
23%
Theravada should remove the Abhihamma, the third basket of the Tipitaka, and go back to the original Dvi-pitaka.
1
1%
Those who promote Abhidhamma “slander the Tathagata” with “ attempts to stuff sectarian doctrine into the Buddha's mouth”.
6
7%
Abhidhamma was invented by monks but so were many sutttas.
6
7%
Only monks who reject/discount Abhidhamma are following the true way.
8
9%
I don’t care because all paths lead to the goal.
1
1%
Abhidhamma is an important part of the Theravada.
22
24%
I think Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha and included at the first council.
7
8%
Abhidhamma helps to understand the teachings of the Buddha- it has the flavor and taste of anatta.
15
16%
 
Total votes: 91

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robertk
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Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

This post hadn't being acted on so I have made this poll.
"And no, a poll cannot be added at this stage, but feel free to recreate this topic (potentially worded differently based on this conversation to date?) with a poll and we'll close this one off with a link to the new one."
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40455&p=626963&hilit=poll#p626963
SarathW
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

I voted 8 and 10
It would have been good if the list had numbers.
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Dhammavamsa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

I voted 8, 9, and 10.
Though I know the fact that only Sutta and Vinaya were compiled systematically and orally by the Arahants at that time. Imo, The Arahants know the Abhidhamma but it was not put into oral text systematically.
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DooDoot
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:24 am I voted 8, 9, and 10.
I voted for the opposite.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Having spent some time with the Abhidhamma, I regard it as a commentary on the suttas. Interesting, but not essential, and not a replacement for the suttas.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I've got no problem with the presence of Abhidhamma within Theravada, other than for any Abhidhamma evangelists who try to ex-communicate those who don't subscribe to Abhidhamma or the commentaries.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 am Greetings,

I've got no problem with the presence of Abhidhamma within Theravada, other than for any Abhidhamma evangelists who try to ex-communicate those who don't subscribe to Abhidhamma or the commentaries.

Metta,
Paul. :)
This is great but what about the people who are intolerant to free inquiry and free-thinking?
The people who think this is the only truth everything is false?
:tongue:
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bundokji
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Bundokji »

I voted #8 because i see little value in equating Theravada with what the Buddha taught. Theravada is a Buddhist sect or school, and for all practicle purposes, Abhidhamma been acknowledged by Theravadin institutions. However, all Buddhists seem to agree that the Buddha taught the dhamma. The term "Abhidhamma" seems to have the addition "Abhi". To me, its best to stick to the basics without any additions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:25 am This is great but what about the people who are intolerant to free inquiry and free-thinking?
They try to ex-communicate or cancel those who are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:24 am I voted 8, 9, and 10.
...
Me too. I would only vote these three even if I could select more than three options.

For 9, at least a part of Abhidhamma, imo.

For 8 ... I'm not satisfied with the sentence. It is not merely an important part of Theravada. It is a fundamental & indispensable part of Theravada similar to the other two pitakas. If there is no Theravada Abhidhamma, there would be no such thing as Theravada, simple as that.

As I said somewhere, it would no longer be funny and weird as well as it would be very logical, rational & auspicious, if the Abhidhamma blemishers try to attack the abhidhamma only after their abandonment of Theravada first.

One wants to refute abhidhamma? No problem. Please do it. However, please do it only after one's departure from Theravada, so that one doesn't look too silly and awkward, and one doesn't look similar to a proverbial dog 🐕 that sleeps on a leather, and eats the very leather on which it sleeps. Thanks. :thumbsup:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Spiny Norman
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:24 am I voted 8, 9, and 10.
...
Me too. I would only vote these three even if I could select more than three options.

For 9, at least a part of Abhidhamma, imo.

For 8 ... I'm not satisfied with the sentence. It is not merely an important part of Theravada. It is a fundamental & indispensable part of Theravada similar to the other two pitakas. If there is no Theravada Abhidhamma, there would be no such thing as Theravada, simple as that.

As I said somewhere, it would no longer be funny and weird as well as it would be very logical, rational & auspicious, if the Abhidhamma blemishers try to attack the abhidhamma only after their abandonment of Theravada first.

One wants to refute abhidhamma? No problem. Please do it. However, please do it only after one's departure from Theravada, so that one doesn't look too silly and awkward, and one doesn't look similar to a proverbial dog 🐕 that sleeps on a leather, and eats the very leather on which it sleeps. Thanks. :thumbsup:
Like the Mahayana, Theravada is a collection of schools and teachers which has continuously developed over 2000 years. It's not a monolithic entity, and it's not like a club where you have to agree to certain rules. It's not like Therevada has a ruling body who will excommunicate naughty members. :tongue:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Coëmgenu »

I said "yes" to 2, 8, and 10.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:51 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:24 am I voted 8, 9, and 10.
...
Me too. I would only vote these three even if I could select more than three options.

For 9, at least a part of Abhidhamma, imo.

For 8 ... I'm not satisfied with the sentence. It is not merely an important part of Theravada. It is a fundamental & indispensable part of Theravada similar to the other two pitakas. If there is no Theravada Abhidhamma, there would be no such thing as Theravada, simple as that.

As I said somewhere, it would no longer be funny and weird as well as it would be very logical, rational & auspicious, if the Abhidhamma blemishers try to attack the abhidhamma only after their abandonment of Theravada first.

One wants to refute abhidhamma? No problem. Please do it. However, please do it only after one's departure from Theravada, so that one doesn't look too silly and awkward, and one doesn't look similar to a proverbial dog 🐕 that sleeps on a leather, and eats the very leather on which it sleeps. Thanks. :thumbsup:
Like the Mahayana, Theravada is a collection of schools and teachers which has continuously developed over 2000 years. It's not a monolithic entity, and it's not like a club where you have to agree to certain rules. It's not like Therevada has a ruling body who will excommunicate naughty members. :tongue:
How about Ajahn Chah's Thai Forest Tradition vs Ajahn Brahm ?


And, theravada without theravada abhidhamma would not be a development. It would be a degeneration; a meaningless defunct lable to be coveted only by the projecting-distorting-Theravada-identifiers and 🐴 Schismatic Trojans 🐴:
  • Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:21 pm According to "progressive Theravada" or more commonly, "Modern Theravada" or "Early Buddhism"
    https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _Theravada



    Those who reject Abhidhamma Pitaka itself (regardless of commentaries) are not actual Theravadins (nor Vibhajjavadins), according to this:
    • ... if we look at the earliest definitions of Buddhism, we see that Early Buddhism without the Commentaries was called Theravada:
      Without getting into a discussion of all the various early schools, If we look at a quick timeline of what Buddhism was called, early Buddhism before the Commentaries was called Theravada:
      * The time of the Buddha: "Buddhism" is called Dhamma-Vinaya
      * First Council: Dhamma-Vinaya (483 BCE)
      * Second Council: Dhamma-Vinaya (350 BCE)
      * Third Council: Vibhajjavada ("doctrine of analysis") and shortly thereafter: Theravada (250 BCE)
      * Fourth Council: Theravada (100 BCE)
      The Abhidhamma became a part of the Canon at the Third Council.
      The Commentaries were written from 300 CE to 13 century CE, after the Fourth Council.
      Thus, someone who follows the "Theravada" as it was set to be from the First to Third Councils, would be a "Theravadin" although today they might be known as "Modern Theravada."
    In other words, Abhidhamma pitaka is an essential component in any variant of Theravada. So, "Early Buddhism, alias Modern Theravada" if devoid of Abhidhamma Pitaka is not Theravada. Accordingly, "Early Buddhism/Modern Theravada" topics rejecting Abhidhamma Pitaka should probably belong to connections to other paths, in a "Dhamma of Theravada Buddhism" Website.

    Early Buddhism without rejecting Abhidhamma Pitaka may belong to Theravada, of course.

    ...
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Apart from direct personal experience, I only know the various opinions I happen to have read about. I've never read the A...a and doubt I will. At the time of The Buddha many people heard a discourse, perhaps two, directly, or heard The Dhamma from someone else and many attained streamentry by practicing the way they were instructed to.

Today many people read many, many, discourses and spend a lot of time opinionating and few attain streamentry.

If streamentry or enlightenment was dependent on having read large parts of the suttas and A..a then there would be no shortage of noble ones.

At the same time, calling oneself a True Believer with or without the commentaries does not magically confer on one some special assurance of future attainment and, whatever ones position is, if the practice is correct one can be assured.
Illiterates who practice correctly and know one or two suttas are better positioned than scholars who know all the suttas and or commentaries but never practice correctly.
If the commentaries work for you, great. Good for you. If they don't, that's fine too. Meanwhile I certainly would take the word of past guardians of The Dhamma seriously.
I choose 0
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:24 am I voted 8, 9, and 10.
...
Me too. I would only vote these three even if I could select more than three options.

For 9, at least a part of Abhidhamma, imo.

For 8 ... I'm not satisfied with the sentence. It is not merely an important part of Theravada. It is a fundamental & indispensable part of Theravada similar to the other two pitakas. If there is no Theravada Abhidhamma, there would be no such thing as Theravada, simple as that.

As I said somewhere, it would no longer be funny and weird as well as it would be very logical, rational & auspicious, if the Abhidhamma blemishers try to attack the abhidhamma only after their abandonment of Theravada first.

One wants to refute abhidhamma? No problem. Please do it. However, please do it only after one's departure from Theravada, so that one doesn't look too silly and awkward, and one doesn't look similar to a proverbial dog 🐕 that sleeps on a leather, and eats the very leather on which it sleeps. Thanks. :thumbsup:
I got a feeling that people simply reject Abhidhamma or any commentaries due to its sheer high amount of technical terms and scholarly method of explanation. They don't even try to read them and there proclaim they understand the Suttas, not knowing that they might potentially distort the meaning of Suttas.

One great example is from Ajahn Brahm's statement that he said in one of its famous YouTube talks, "keep the teachings simple, just 4 Noble Truths, you know...." But Buddha never said His teachings were simple and easy for this generation of mankind, in fact Buddha commented that His Dhamma are not easy to be realised and He did incline not to teach at first point (but then Sutta said that Brahma Sahampati, the Overlord in Brahma Gods World, comes and plead the Buddha to teach the Dhamma).

Just finished the first chapter of Abhidhamattha Sangaha, and it gives me a clearer picture on how beings are hurled from one existence to another and sometimes land in happy existence and sometimes in woeful states according to Paticca Samuppada. And it can only be ended by achieving Arahantship.
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