Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

What is your opinion about Abhidhamma and its place in Theravada

We can be sure modern scholars are right that Abhidhamma was not at first council because they use science for their conclusions.
4
4%
Abhidhamma was invented by later monks who put it in with the original texts at the third council.
21
23%
Theravada should remove the Abhihamma, the third basket of the Tipitaka, and go back to the original Dvi-pitaka.
1
1%
Those who promote Abhidhamma “slander the Tathagata” with “ attempts to stuff sectarian doctrine into the Buddha's mouth”.
6
7%
Abhidhamma was invented by monks but so were many sutttas.
6
7%
Only monks who reject/discount Abhidhamma are following the true way.
8
9%
I don’t care because all paths lead to the goal.
1
1%
Abhidhamma is an important part of the Theravada.
22
24%
I think Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha and included at the first council.
7
8%
Abhidhamma helps to understand the teachings of the Buddha- it has the flavor and taste of anatta.
15
16%
 
Total votes: 91

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robertk
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:11 am

- My sense is that a lot of the schools who set about making their own Abhidhammas and commentaries did so because they wanted to be the ones to "own" the definitive interpretation of the Buddhavacana discourses, which they had all inherited. This is why only a sect that had prepared its own sectarian doctrine would also be the only one to preserve it, and hence why the Theravada Abhidhamma and commentaries exist only within Theravada - nowhere else.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Wouldn't it have been easier for the non-Theravada schools to bring attention to the fact that the Theravada were smuggling in a whole, huge, fake addition to what was recited at the first council. Wouldn't that alone have sunk the Theravada: why try to match the Theravada in such wholesale deception?

Also if this Abhidhamma was only recited at the third council, that must mean all those Theravada monks at the council over 2250 years must have been in on this massive deception. Mahinda must have known he was bringing a fake basket to Sri Lanka. This suggests the 3rd council was manned by truly obtuse or even lying monks.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:23 am Wouldn't it have been easier for the non-Theravada schools to bring attention to the fact that the Theravada were smuggling in a whole, huge, fake addition to what was recited at the first council. Wouldn't that alone have sunk the Theravada: why try to match the Theravada in such wholesale deception?
There was a school that didn't initially invent an Abhidhamma, hence their name Sautrāntika. Otherwise, they were mostly all in on it themselves, developing their own sectarian claims to Dharmic supremacy.

Also, as I said elsewhere to you, to the best of my knowledge, the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself did not ascribe authorship of the Abhidhamma to the Buddha. Thus, it wasn't any more slanderous to create this new sectarian doctrine, than it would be to create a new sectarian commentary. Pointless (per the Simsapa Sutta), not to be given attention (per the Ani Sutta), but not slanderous either.
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:23 amAlso if this Abhidhamma was only recited at the third council, that must mean all those Theravada monks at the council over 2250 years must have been in on this massive deception.
It only takes one lie by one person to deceive many. To repeat what one has been deceived about, doesn't make you "in on this massive deception." Such are the risks of granting anyone an intellectual monopoly over all things Dhamma.
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:23 amMahinda must have known he was bringing a fake basket to Sri Lanka. This suggests the 3rd council was manned by truly obtuse or even lying monks.
This again ignores what I've been saying about the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself not ascribing its own authorship to The Buddha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

This again ignores what I've been saying about the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself not ascribing its own authorship to The Buddha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Do you mean that while the monks called the Abhidhamma the 3rd basket of the Tipitaka they weren't suggesting it was part of the Buddha's teachings?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:58 am Do you mean that while the monks called the Abhidhamma the 3rd basket of the Tipitaka they weren't suggesting it was part of the Buddha's teachings?
Thus have I heard.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Well retro, you've made a big claim.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:23 am Well retro, you've made a big claim.
With every other sect (bar one?) making their own Abhidharmas, the bigger claim would be that "ours" traced back to the Buddha, yet somehow no other sect possessed it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Gwi
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Gwi »

The last is a best answer.

Abhidhammå more easy than Suttå
To know bout The Four Noble Truths.

Strong in belief, maybe need Suttå
or less prominent in wisdom.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
asahi
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by asahi »

All can be said is that having Abhidhamma around somehow is still considered as part of buddhism and are far better than secular buddhism in which they are full of wrong view .
No bashing No gossiping
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MikeRalphKing
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by MikeRalphKing »

robertk wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:38 am But why bother with the ideas of a schismatic school ( which must have many deviations) when we have the complete Abhidhamma Pitaka - the Buddha's word.
We have discussed this elsewhere, but it is plain as day to me that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's word. It is the word of earnest, sincere monks who, having heard the Buddha's actual words (suttas) wished to collate and systematise them. However in doing so they cannot hope to recreate the electric charge, the spontenaity, and the essential fluidity of the Buddha's own thinking. What is also entirely missing is the dynamic of the Buddha's exchanges with a huge range of interlocutors, or the exchanges between the arahants, for example (I happened to read it again this morning) when Anuruddha tells Sariputta that he has the divine eye but is still not free of the taints. Sariputta advises him to meditate on the deathless, and through that Anuruddha attains arahantship. Countless such extraordinary encounters are completely lost in the Abhidhamma.

Reading the four major Nikayas in full is a task few Buddhists undertake, and so they turn to the Abhidhamma in the hope of a shorter summary. I would suggest however that an hour spent on the Middle, Connected or Numerical verses is worth ten spent on the Abhidhamma.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

MikeRalphKing wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:38 am
robertk wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:38 am But why bother with the ideas of a schismatic school ( which must have many deviations) when we have the complete Abhidhamma Pitaka - the Buddha's word.
We have discussed this elsewhere, but it is plain as day to me that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's word. It is the word of earnest, sincere monks who, having heard the Buddha's actual words (suttas) wished to collate and systematise them. However in doing so they cannot hope to recreate the electric charge, the spontenaity, and the essential fluidity of the Buddha's own thinking. What is also entirely missing is the dynamic of the Buddha's exchanges with a huge range of interlocutors, or the exchanges between the arahants, for example (I happened to read it again this morning) when Anuruddha tells Sariputta that he has the divine eye but is still not free of the taints. Sariputta advises him to meditate on the deathless, and through that Anuruddha attains arahantship. Countless such extraordinary encounters are completely lost in the Abhidhamma.

Reading the four major Nikayas in full is a task few Buddhists undertake, and so they turn to the Abhidhamma in the hope of a shorter summary. I would suggest however that an hour spent on the Middle, Connected or Numerical verses is worth ten spent on the Abhidhamma.
Why not both?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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MikeRalphKing
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by MikeRalphKing »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:23 am Why not both?
Because (a) there are only so many hours available for study, and (b) in the Abhidharma you are meeting a lesser mind or minds than the Buddha's. Those lesser minds over the last 2,500 years have completely obscured his teachings, so best put them to one side.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

MikeRalphKing wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:30 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:23 am Why not both?
Because (a) there are only so many hours available for study, and (b) in the Abhidharma you are meeting a lesser mind or minds than the Buddha's. Those lesser minds over the last 2,500 years have completely obscured his teachings, so best put them to one side.
Why are they lesser minds? It is possible to study both. I have, and not just the Theravadin one too. It’s quite rewarding.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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MikeRalphKing
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by MikeRalphKing »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:35 pm Why are they lesser minds? It is possible to study both. I have, and not just the Theravadin one too. It’s quite rewarding.
I see them as lesser minds because they lack the Three Knowledges.

But what you say is of interest. Can you give me an example of where the Abhiddhama clarified an element of the Buddha's teachings which the Buddha did not clarify himself?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

MikeRalphKing wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:35 pm Why are they lesser minds? It is possible to study both. I have, and not just the Theravadin one too. It’s quite rewarding.
I see them as lesser minds because they lack the Three Knowledges.

But what you say is of interest. Can you give me an example of where the Abhiddhama clarified an element of the Buddha's teachings which the Buddha did not clarify himself?
Arahants can lack all three knowledges, and so are "lesser" than a Buddha, but its still a high attainment. Of course we don't know if the compliers of the Abhidharmas were Arahants or not, but to write them off from the start as "lesser minds" doesn't seem particularly wise. They are at least the product of the Sangha. The idea that layfolk can rely on the suttas alone is a very modern phenomenon. Regarding your other question we find an explanation of the Bases of Mastery, Eight Liberations and the Kasiṇa. There are no sutta explanations for those, but those practices were obviously important.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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MikeRalphKing
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Re: The Utility of Abhidhamma

Post by MikeRalphKing »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:56 pm Arahants can lack all three knowledges, and so are "lesser" than a Buddha, but its still a high attainment. Of course we don't know if the compliers of the Abhidharmas were Arahants or not, but to write them off from the start as "lesser minds" doesn't seem particularly wise. They are at least the product of the Sangha. The idea that layfolk can rely on the suttas alone is a very modern phenomenon. Regarding your other question we find an explanation of the Bases of Mastery, Eight Liberations and the Kasiṇa. There are no sutta explanations for those, but those practices were obviously important.
(1) I do not think that the suttas support you assertion that arahants can lack all three Knowledges. The Buddha often defines arahantship in terms of the third Knowledge.
(2) The Sangha includes some extremely lesser minds, or the Patimokkha would not have been needed (as the Vinaya makes clear). But my assessment of "lesser minds" is down to the plodding technicalities and ramifications of the Abhidhamma, rather like the work of the scholastics in medieval Christianity.
(3) There are no sutta explanations for the kasinas because, clearly, the Buddha placed no weight on them. He merely comments here and there that the monks practice using them, and so lists them.
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