Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

What is your opinion about Abhidhamma and its place in Theravada

We can be sure modern scholars are right that Abhidhamma was not at first council because they use science for their conclusions.
4
4%
Abhidhamma was invented by later monks who put it in with the original texts at the third council.
21
23%
Theravada should remove the Abhihamma, the third basket of the Tipitaka, and go back to the original Dvi-pitaka.
1
1%
Those who promote Abhidhamma “slander the Tathagata” with “ attempts to stuff sectarian doctrine into the Buddha's mouth”.
6
7%
Abhidhamma was invented by monks but so were many sutttas.
6
7%
Only monks who reject/discount Abhidhamma are following the true way.
8
9%
I don’t care because all paths lead to the goal.
1
1%
Abhidhamma is an important part of the Theravada.
22
24%
I think Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha and included at the first council.
7
8%
Abhidhamma helps to understand the teachings of the Buddha- it has the flavor and taste of anatta.
15
16%
 
Total votes: 91

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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by DNS »

I chose number 2 for one of my options. I wouldn't call it "invented by the monks" though. I'd say it's more like their understanding of the Dhamma-Vinaya and their elaboration, commentary on it.

And then for my other two choices, some might find it surprising for me to answer numbers 8 & 10.

I do believe it is an important part of Theravada. I believe it may not be Buddhavacana, but that doesn't negate it from being Theravada. And then I also believe it can be helpful.

I'm somewhat of a Suttavadin, focusing on the Buddhavacana of the EBTs, but that doesn't mean I can say what shouldn't be in Theravada. It is a part of the Theravada tradition and perhaps people who outright reject Abhidhamma are the ones who should call themselves something else, like Suttavadin or Dhamma-Vinaya; which is still very similar to Theravada since we use large parts of the Pali Canon.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Just sharing a link, hope it shed some light on this matter.

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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

I can't agree or disagree with any of these statements, but personally consider Abhidhamma superfluous and therefore unnecessary to understanding Buddhadhamma or reaching the goal. It doesn't ring true to me in the way the suttas generally do.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by cappuccino »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:30 pm I can't agree or disagree with any of these statements, but personally consider Abhidhamma superfluous and therefore unnecessary to understanding Buddhadhamma or reaching the goal. It doesn't ring true to me in the way the suttas generally do.
:goodpost:
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by dharmacorps »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:06 am Having spent some time with the Abhidhamma, I regard it as a commentary on the suttas. Interesting, but not essential, and not a replacement for the suttas.
Ditto for me. I don't find the abhidhamma particularly helpful to my practice, but if it does for others thats cool. I don't personally get why people seem to get so defensive about it, especially lately on here.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:35 pm Just sharing a link, hope it shed some light on this matter.

At 11.40 he clearly says that rejecting commentaries is a phenomenon of few Western Monks.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by arkaprava »

Probably he doesn't know about Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dan74 »

I didn't feel connected with any of the options.

Some Abhidhamma seems to me to be aligned well with the suttas. Other less so. This could of course be due to my lack of understanding of the latter of the former.

The authorship is clouded in the mists of time. Who can tell with any certainty?
_/|\_
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

arkaprava wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 pm Probably he doesn't know about Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda
I think some Sri Lankan monks also reject commentaries such as Visuddhimagga.

I had once heard a Sri Lankan monk in our nearby Buddhist temple many years ago, he said he rejected Visuddhimagga because Ven Buddhaghosa burnt the Sinhala commentary books. But actually that story was only recorded in Burmese novel Buddhaghosasuppati and it seems involved many mythical events and contradiction that couldn't be counted as historical documentary. I am not sure why he would judge an ancient work based on a Burmese novel. I also vividly remember a Sri Lankan person said there are no Arahants due to commentaries. Personally I disagreed because Arahant Mahinda Thera was there, before him the commentaries were existed. Hardly justifiable by blaming others for our negligence.

The monks who reject Abhidhamma Pitaka and the commentaries usually produce their own new interpretation.and definition. Often this led to different understandings. Best example would Singapore/Malaysia famous Luang Phor Dhammavuddho who completely rejected all Abhidhamma and commentaries, only accept Nikayas. He said in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha taught there is a Soul entity, which is the real essence of life, just that it is everchanging. When we died, our Soul or "Ling hun" come out from body, wonder and wait to enter the womb for rebirth. Now he said in his YouTube talks that this is true teachings of the Buddha as it supported by Karaniyametta sutta. And he gained a lot of support from Malaysian Buddhists.

Some in Thailand like Luang Phor Sod, who also produce his own understanding about Nibbana. Saying it is a Nibbana city or Buddhaland. A monk named Luang Phor Reusi Lingdam go as far as claiming the Buddhists should worship the ever First Buddha, named Somdej Ong Pathom, for all the Buddhas including Gautama also is later Buddha. These two monks were treated as Enlightened Beings in Thailand, and their amulets were sold for thousand or million of bahts.

Now all these due to monks' own interpretation on Scriptures and reject traditional explanation handed down by the Arahant Elders in the past.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

I think some Sri Lankan monks also reject commentaries such as Visuddhimagga.
I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:25 am some Sri Lankan monks ... a Sri Lankan monk ... Ven Buddhaghosa ...a Sri Lankan person ... Arahant Mahinda Thera ... The monks who ... Luang Phor Dhammavuddho ... Malaysian Buddhists. ... Luang Phor Sod... Luang Phor Reusi Lingdam ... First Buddha, named Somdej Ong Pathom,.. Gautama ... two monks ... monks' own ...Arahant Elders in the past.
I did notice any Teachings mentioned in the above. Only "personalities". :smile:
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.
To do a controlled demolition of a building, is it best to place the explosives inside the building or outside the building? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am
I think some Sri Lankan monks also reject commentaries such as Visuddhimagga.
I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.

Agreed. imo, There is no Theravada, if devoid of Theravada abhidhamma; however, there would still be Theravada, if devoid of Vissudhimagga.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:49 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am
I think some Sri Lankan monks also reject commentaries such as Visuddhimagga.
I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.

Agreed. imo, There is no Theravada, if devoid of Theravada abhidhamma; however, there would still be Theravada, if devoid of Vissudhimagga.

:heart:
Did they include it in latter Buddhist councils?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:52 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:49 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am
I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.

Agreed. imo, There is no Theravada, if devoid of Theravada abhidhamma; however, there would still be Theravada, if devoid of Vissudhimagga.

:heart:
Did they include it in latter Buddhist councils?

imo, the focus here is on Theravada Abhidhamma and it's indispensableness to Theravada itself. The significant relevancy here is up to Third council, not the later ones.


Of course, Vissudhimagga & the benefits it brings to Tipitaka Theravada would be another interesting topic. And, I believe there is no such thing as DwiPitaka Theravada :mrgreen:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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