Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

What is your opinion about Abhidhamma and its place in Theravada

We can be sure modern scholars are right that Abhidhamma was not at first council because they use science for their conclusions.
4
4%
Abhidhamma was invented by later monks who put it in with the original texts at the third council.
21
23%
Theravada should remove the Abhihamma, the third basket of the Tipitaka, and go back to the original Dvi-pitaka.
1
1%
Those who promote Abhidhamma “slander the Tathagata” with “ attempts to stuff sectarian doctrine into the Buddha's mouth”.
6
7%
Abhidhamma was invented by monks but so were many sutttas.
6
7%
Only monks who reject/discount Abhidhamma are following the true way.
8
9%
I don’t care because all paths lead to the goal.
1
1%
Abhidhamma is an important part of the Theravada.
22
24%
I think Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha and included at the first council.
7
8%
Abhidhamma helps to understand the teachings of the Buddha- it has the flavor and taste of anatta.
15
16%
 
Total votes: 91

asahi
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by asahi »

Was abhidhamma recited in the 1st council & by whom ?
No bashing No gossiping
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am
I think some Sri Lankan monks also reject commentaries such as Visuddhimagga.
I think Visuddhimagga is not part of the Tipitaka.
So I have no problem people reject it even though I believe it is authentic.
Fair enough. Imo, since Ven Buddhaghosa wrote Visuddhimagga based on the teachings of Pali Tipitaka, I too accept it as orthodox Theravada scripture. I think, in fact, it gives a complete systematic exegesis about Theravada Buddhist doctrine and far better than some modern so-called scholars.
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arkaprava
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by arkaprava »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:25 am
arkaprava wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 pm Probably he doesn't know about Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda

Often this led to different understandings. Best example would Singapore/Malaysia famous Luang Phor Dhammavuddho who completely rejected all Abhidhamma and commentaries, only accept Nikayas. He said in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha taught there is a Soul entity, which is the real essence of life, just that it is everchanging. When we died, our Soul or "Ling hun" come out from body, wonder and wait to enter the womb for rebirth. Now he said in his YouTube talks that this is true teachings of the Buddha as it supported by Karaniyametta sutta. And he gained a lot of support from Malaysian Buddhists.
Do you have a source for this ?
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Dhammavamsa »

arkaprava wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:44 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:25 am
arkaprava wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 pm Probably he doesn't know about Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda

Often this led to different understandings. Best example would Singapore/Malaysia famous Luang Phor Dhammavuddho who completely rejected all Abhidhamma and commentaries, only accept Nikayas. He said in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha taught there is a Soul entity, which is the real essence of life, just that it is everchanging. When we died, our Soul or "Ling hun" come out from body, wonder and wait to enter the womb for rebirth. Now he said in his YouTube talks that this is true teachings of the Buddha as it supported by Karaniyametta sutta. And he gained a lot of support from Malaysian Buddhists.
Do you have a source for this ?
https://www.dhammavuddho.com/dhammavuddho-and-the-soul/

Or you can listen to his Dhammatalks on YouTube. But mostly is in Chinese language.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:05 pm
arkaprava wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:44 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:25 am


Often this led to different understandings. Best example would Singapore/Malaysia famous Luang Phor Dhammavuddho who completely rejected all Abhidhamma and commentaries, only accept Nikayas. He said in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha taught there is a Soul entity, which is the real essence of life, just that it is everchanging. When we died, our Soul or "Ling hun" come out from body, wonder and wait to enter the womb for rebirth. Now he said in his YouTube talks that this is true teachings of the Buddha as it supported by Karaniyametta sutta. And he gained a lot of support from Malaysian Buddhists.
Do you have a source for this ?
https://www.dhammavuddho.com/dhammavuddho-and-the-soul/

Or you can listen to his Dhammatalks on YouTube. But mostly is in Chinese language.




The above teaching is really strange; however Piya Tan concluded in his article of the above link (Dhammavuḍḍho And The Soul):
  • Dhammavuḍḍho’s usage of “soul” for the mind, the mental aggregates and rebirth-consciousness is neither new nor controversial. Even in Thailand, the word “winyaan” (Thai word of viññāṇa) is used in just this sense.

    Of course, such terms are defined in accordance with the suttas. Neither the “winyaan” nor the “soul” is an eternal being or abiding self, but a simple conventional word for those aspects of our being that are NON-PHYSICAL in a living process rooted in impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self.
    When limited to this conclusion there seems no suspicious things; however the following is a different matter:
    • He said in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha taught there is a Soul entity, which is the real essence of life, just that it is everchanging. When we died, our Soul or "Ling hun" come out from body, wonder and wait to enter the womb for rebirth. ...
      It seems occasional issue limited to some of those who want to discard Abhidhamma & Commentaries, ending up inevitably in creating their own personalized versions of rather unique commentaries.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by DNS »

asahi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:22 am Was abhidhamma recited in the 1st council & by whom ?
Opinions vary, but apparently it was not.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: 'Your reverences, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Upali on discipline.' Then the venerable Upali informed the Order, saying: 'Honorable sirs, the Order listen to me . . . "

And then the Patimokkha of the Vinaya was recited.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Ananda about dhamma.' Then the venerable Ananada informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order, I, questioned on the dhamma by the venerable Kassapa the Great, could answer . . . "

And then Kassapa questions Ananda on the first two chapters of the Digha Nikaya and after that we have:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great questioned the venerable Ananda as to the provenance of the Samannaphala and he questioned him as to the individual. In this same way he questioned him about the five Nikayas. Constantly, questioned, the venerable Ananda answered."

Vinaya, Cullavagga XI

My emphasis in bold above, notice how that sentence appears to be a summarizing statement, stating all of the rest that was recited at the First Council. So what was recited was the Patimokkha from the Vinaya and the five Nikayas, that's it.

At least from the Canonical account (Tipitaka), there appears to be no indication that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council.

see also, this topic: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2169
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robertk
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:20 pm
asahi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:22 am Was abhidhamma recited in the 1st council & by whom ?
Opinions vary, but apparently it was not.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: 'Your reverences, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Upali on discipline.' Then the venerable Upali informed the Order, saying: 'Honorable sirs, the Order listen to me . . . "

And then the Patimokkha of the Vinaya was recited.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Ananda about dhamma.' Then the venerable Ananada informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order, I, questioned on the dhamma by the venerable Kassapa the Great, could answer . . . "

And then Kassapa questions Ananda on the first two chapters of the Digha Nikaya and after that we have:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great questioned the venerable Ananda as to the provenance of the Samannaphala and he questioned him as to the individual. In this same way he questioned him about the five Nikayas. Constantly, questioned, the venerable Ananda answered."

Vinaya, Cullavagga XI

My emphasis in bold above, notice how that sentence appears to be a summarizing statement, stating all of the rest that was recited at the First Council. So what was recited was the Patimokkha from the Vinaya and the five Nikayas, that's it.

At least from the Canonical account (Tipitaka), there appears to be no indication that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council.
At times Abhidhamma is classified as part of the Nikayas:
The Expositor (Atthasalini). Buddhaghosa's Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
Thus as rehearsed at the[first] Council, the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka-classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya-classification, [28] Veyyakarana by Part-classification and constitutes two or three thousand units of text by the classification of textual units
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

asahi wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:22 am Was abhidhamma recited in the 1st council & by whom ?
In the Atthasalini by Buddhaghosa it says
Unto the spirits taught., he afterwards,
The Leader, told it all in form concise^
To Sariputta Elder, when he waited on The Sage at Anotatta lake.^ And what The Elder heard, he brought to plains of earth And taught it to the brethren. And they all Remembered it. And when the Council met [the FIRST COUNCIL].
By the wise son of the Videhi Dame'[Ananda] It was again rehearsed
Thus according to this account the Abhidhamma (with the exception of the Katthavathu) was recited by Ananda at the first council.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:22 am At times Abhidhamma is classified as part of the Nikayas:
The Expositor (Atthasalini). Buddhaghosa's Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
Thus as rehearsed at the[first] Council, the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka-classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya-classification, [28] Veyyakarana by Part-classification and constitutes two or three thousand units of text by the classification of textual units
Respectfully, if that were true, all Buddhist traditions would have the Theravada Abhidhamma as a shared inheritance. They do not. Of all the early and later schools, only Theravada has it. This reality cannot be denied, however inconvenient it may be for Buddhaghosa et.al.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by SarathW »

At times Abhidhamma is classified as part of the Nikayas:
Then why can't we see Abhidhamma in Nikaya?
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

From the Mahavamsa (older than the Commentaries )about how the various other schools arose:


yaa mahaakassapaadiihi, mahaatherehi aadito
kataa saddhamma sa.mgiiti, theriyaa'ti pavuccati
eko'va theravaado so, aadivassasate ahu
a~n~naacariyavaadaatu, tato ora.m ajaayisu.m

That rehearsal of the Saddhamma arranged at the
beginning by the great theras such as
Mahaakassapa, is called the Theravaada, for the
first hundred years it was undivided. But later
arose other aacariyavaadas.


tehi sa.mgiitikaarehi, therehi dutiyehi te
niggahitaa paapabhikkhuu, sabbe dasasahassakaa
aka.msaa'cariyavaada.m te, mahaasa.mgiitinaamakaa

The evil monks, ten thousand in all, who were
censured by the theras who held the Second
Council, established the school of doctrine named
the Mahaasa.mgiiti (Greater Recital or Assembly).

tato gokulikaa jaataa, ekabbohaarikaapi ca

From that arose the Gokulikas and the Ekabbohaarikas

gokulikehi pa.n.natti-vaadaa baahulikaapi ca
cetiyavaadaa tesveva, samataasa`nghikaa cha te

From the Gokulikas arose the Pa.n.nattivaada and
the Baahulikas; from these arose the Cetiyavaada.
Thus there are six schools designated Mahaasanghika.

punaapi theravaadehi, mahi.msaasakabhikkhavo
vajjiiputtakabhikkhuu ca, duve jaataa ime khalu

And then two more arose from among the followers
of the Theravaada: the Mahi.msaasaka and the
Vajjiputtaka bhikkhus.

jaataa'tha dhammuttariyaa, bhadrayaanikabhikkhavo
channaagaaraa sammitiyaa, vajjiiputtiyabhikkhuuti

Then arose the Dhammuttariyaas, the Bhadrayaanika
monks, the Channaagaarikas, the Sammitiyas, and
the Vajjiiputtiya monks.

mahi.msaasakabhikkhuuhi, bhikkhuu sabbattha
vaadino
dhammaguttiyabhikkhuu ca, jaataa khalu ime duve

From the Mahi.msaasaka monks arose these two: the
Sabbatthivaadins and the Dhammaguttiya monks.

jaataa sabbatthivaadiihi, kassapiyaa tato pana
jaataa sa`nkantikaa bhikkhuu, suttavaadaa tato
pana

From the Sabbatthivaadins arose the Kassapiyas,
then from these arose the Sankantika monks, and
from these the Suttavaadins.

theravaadena saha te, honti dvaadasi'mepi ca
pubbe vuttachavaadaa ca, iti a.t.thaarasaa khilaa

These make twelve, together with the Theravaada;
to these are added the six schools named before,
thus making eighteen.

sattarasaapi dutiye, jaataa vasassate iti
a~n~naacariyavaadaa tu, tato oramajaayisu.m

Thus in the second century arose seventeen
schools, and the others arose afterwards.

hemataa raajagiriyaa, tathaa siddhatthikaapi ca
pubbaseliyabhikkhuu ca, tathaa aparaseliyaa

The Hemavata and the Raajagiriyaa, and likewise
the Siddhatthaka, the Pubbaseliya monks and the
Aparaseliyas,

vaajiriyaa cha etehi, jambudiipamhi bhinnakaa
dhammaruci ca saagaliyaa, la.mkaadiipamhi
bhinnakaa

and the Vajiriyas: these six broke away in
Jambudiipa. The Dhammaruci and the Saagaliyas
broke away on the Island of Lankaa.

aacariyakulavaadakathaa ni.t.thitaa
Concluded is the the Story of the Aacariya Schools
(Mahaava.msa V. 1-12)
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

here is some on Theravada from the Dipavamsa. It lists the great monks at the first council and explains why the name Theravada:
Kassapa was the chief propounder of the Dhutanga pre-
cepts according to the doctrine of the Jina; Ananda was
the first of those learned (in the Suttas), wise Upali was
chief in the Vinaya, — 4. Anuruddha in the (supernatu-
ral) visions, Vangisa in promptly comprehending, Punna
among the preachers of the Dhamma, Kumarakassapa
among the students of various tales, — 5. Kaccana in
establishing distinctions, Kotthita in analytical knowledge.
There were, besides, many other great Theras who were v
original depositaries (of Buddha's doctrine). 6. Jy these />^
and other saintly Theras who had fulfilled their duties,
to the number of five hundred, was the collection of the
Dhamma and of the Vinaya made; because it was col-
lected by the Theras, it is called the doctrine of the Theras
(theravada). 7. The Bhikkhus composed the collection of
Dhamma and Vinaya by consulting Upali about the Vi-
naya, and by asking the (Thera) called Ananda regarding
the Dhamma. 8. Thera Mahakassapa and the great tea-
cher Anuruddha, Thera Upali of powerful memory, and
the learned Ananda, — 9. as well as many other distin-
guished disciples, who had been praised by the master,
who possessed analytical knowledge, firmness, the six
(supernatural) faculties and the great (magical) powers,
who had attained the mystic trance proceeding from self-
concentration, who had completely mastered the true faith,
— 10. all these five hundred Theras bore in their minds
the nine-fold doctrine of the Jina, having acquired it from
the best of Buddhas. 11. They who had heard and re-
ceived from Bhagavat himself the whole Dhamma and
Vinaya taught by the Buddha, — 12. they who knew the
Dhamma, who knew the Vinaya, who all were acquainted
with the Agamas, who were unconquerable, immovable,
similar to their master, ever worshipful, — 13. they who
had received the perfect doctrine, first (among religions),
from the first (among teachers), who were Theras and
original depositaries (of the Faith), made this first col-
lection. H
ence this whole doctrine of the Theras [Theravada] is also
called the first (or primitive) doctrine.

1

|
etasmiin sannipatamhi thero Kassapasavhayo
sattbukappo mab&nago, pathavya n' atthi tdtso, |
arahantanam paiicasatam uccinitvaDa Kassapo
varam varain gahetvana akasi dbammasamgahaip. |
panrnain anukampaya sasanam dighak4likam
aksLsi dbammasamirafaam tinnam msls&nain accaye
sampatte catutthc mkse dutiye vassupanayike. |
Sattapannagubadv&re Mligadhanam Giribbaje
5 sattamasehi nitthasi pathamo saingaho ayam. |
etasmim samgabe bbikkhii agganikkhittakA bahft
sabbe pi p&ramippatta lokanathassa sasane. |
dhutavadanam aggo so Kassapo jinas4sane,
bahussutanam Aiiando, vinaye Upalisavhayo, |
dibbacakkhumhi Anuruddko, Vangiso patibhanav^
Punno ca dhammakatbikanam, vicitrakathi Kumarakassapo,
vibhajjanamhi Kaccano, Kotthiko patisambhida,

anne p^ atthi mah&thera agganikkhittaka hahh. |

tehi c' annehi therehi katakiccehi s^dhuhi

pancasatehi therehi dhamniavinayo ca samgito.

therehi katasaingaho theravado 'ti vuccati. | lo

Up&Iim vlnayam pucchitv& dbammam Anandapanditam

akamsu dhammasamgahain vinayan c&pi kevalain. |

jinassa santike gahit& dhammavinay^ ca te ubho

Up&lithero ca Anando saddhamme p^ramigato |

pariyayadesitafi cslpi atho nippariy^yadesitam

nitatthaD c^ eva neyyattbam dipimsii suttakovida. |

aggassa santike aggam gahetva vakyam tathagatam

agganikkhittaka thera aggam akarnsu samgabaip,

ta8m& hi so theravado aggavado ^ti^viuscati. |

yisuddho apagatadoso theravadanam uttamo

pavattittha cirakalam vassanam dasadha dasa 'ti. | 15

Nikkhante pathame vassasate sampatte dutiye sate
mahabhedo aj^yittha theravadanam uttamo. |


Nobody, may a Sa-
mana come or a Brahmana of great learning, skilled in
disputation and hair-splitting, can subvert it; firm it stands
like Sineru. 20. Neither a deity nor Mara nor Brahma
nor any earthly beings can find in it even the smallest ill-
spoken sentence. 21. Thus the collection of the Dhamma
and of the Vinaya is complete in every part, well arran-
ged and well protected by the omniscience of the Teacher.
22. 23. And those five hundred Theras, chief among whom
was Mahakassapa, as they knew the doubts of the people,
composed the imperishable collection of the Vinaya and of
the Dhamma, which is an incarnation of the Faith like the
highest Buddha, the collection of the Dhamma. 24. The
doctrine of the Theras, which is founded on true reasons,
which is free from heresies, full of true meaning, and
supports the true faith, will exist as long as the Faith.

25. As long as holy disciples of Buddha's faith exist, all
of them will recognize the first Council of the Dhamma.

26. The five hundred pre-eminent Theras, noble by birth (?),
laid the first firm, original, fundamental base (of the
Faith).

Here ends the Council of Mahakassapa.
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:46 am From the Mahavamsa (older than the Commentaries )about how the various other schools arose:
...
That rehearsal of the Saddhamma arranged at the
beginning by the great theras such as
Mahaakassapa, is called the Theravaada, for the
first hundred years it was undivided. But later
arose other aacariyavaadas.
Not only is that simply untrue (like so much else in the Mahavamsa) but it doesn't in any way account for how only Theravada ended up with the Theravada Abhidhamma.

Such sectarian stories just don't carry water. We might wish they did, but they don't.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:26 am Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:22 am At times Abhidhamma is classified as part of the Nikayas:
The Expositor (Atthasalini). Buddhaghosa's Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
Thus as rehearsed at the[first] Council, the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka-classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya-classification, [28] Veyyakarana by Part-classification and constitutes two or three thousand units of text by the classification of textual units
Respectfully, if that were true, all Buddhist traditions would have the Theravada Abhidhamma as a shared inheritance. They do not. Of all the early and later schools, only Theravada has it. This reality cannot be denied, however inconvenient it may be for Buddhaghosa et.al.

Metta,
Paul. :)
If I remember correctly some of the other schools do have some type of Abhidhamma, albeit not the same as Theravada. An obvious reason for this is that the Abhidhamma is rather detailed and while some suttas can be misconstrued to suit a erroneous view, it is more difficult to do that (not impossible of course) in the case of the precise Abhidhamma.
And I am no expert on other schools but don't their suttas differ in places from the original Theravada- or are they identical across all nikayas and Vinaya. I ask this because according to the Dipavamsa:

30. 31. The wicked Bhikkhus, the Yajjiputtaka who
hid been excommunicated by the Theras, gained another
irty; and many people, holding the wrong doctrine, ten
thousand, assembled and (also) held a council. Therefore
lie Dhamma council is called the Great Council .

32. The Bhikkhus of the Great Council settled a doc-
ine contrary (to the true Faith). Altering the original
idaction they made another redaction. 33. They trans-
wed Suttas which belonged to one place (of the col-
ction), to another place; they destroyed the (true) meaning
id the Faith, in the vinaya and in the five Collections [the fifth Nikaya includes Abhidhamma according to one classification]
3i. 35. Those Bhikkhus, who understood
neither what had been taught in long expositions nor
without exposition, neither the natural meaning nor the
condite meaning, settled a false meaning in connection
with spnrious speeches of Buddha; these Bhikkhus de-
royed a great deal of (true) meaning under the colour



5, 86—60. 141

of the letter. 36. Rejecting single passages of the Suttas
and of the profound Vinaya, they composed other Suttas
and another Vinaya which had (only) the appearance (of
the genuine ones). 37. Rejecting the following texts, viz.:
the Parivara which -is an abstract of the contents (of the
vinaya), the six sections of the Abhidhamma, the Pati-
sambhida, the Niddesa, and some portions of the JMaka,
they composed new ones. 38. Forsaking the original rules
regarding nouns, genders, composition, and the embellish-
ments of style, they changed all that.

39. Those who held the Great Council were the first
schismatics; in imitation of them many heretics arose.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Abhidhamma and Theravada.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:08 am If I remember correctly some of the other schools do have some type of Abhidhamma, albeit not the same as Theravada. An obvious reason for this is that the Abhidhamma is rather detailed and while some suttas can be misconstrued to suit a erroneous view, it is more difficult to do that (not impossible of course) in the case of the precise Abhidhamma.
And I am no expert on other schools but don't their suttas different in places from the original Theravada- or are they identical across all nikayas and Vinaya.
My response too will be based on recollection, so to that end, I welcome the input or correction of anyone with a more active interest in such matters.

Key points, as they appear to me include:

- The other schools did have the discourses, but given that the majority of early schools died out, they therefore had no organised or systematic way of transmitting the discourses from one generation to the next - whether orally, or in written form (remembering that scriptures generally had to be re-written over time due to deterioration of physical materials). Therefore much of what does exist, exists only in the form of "fragments", rather than complete "baskets". These "fragments" record no crossover with the Theravada Abhidhamma.

- The exception to the above are the discourses maintained by the "northern schools" who actually survived. Whilst their primary interest became their own Mahayana discourses, they did not necessarily lose or toss away the earlier discourses they had inherited. This is where the "Chinese Agamas" hold so much value because they show a "parallel Canon" which contains discourses that are remarkably similar, and often functionally equivalent to their Pali parallels. Even the baskets of the two canons more or less line up with one another. Hence why on Sutta Central, when they talk about The Collection Of Middle Discourses they include both the Pali's "Majjhima Nikāya (MN)" and the Chinese parallel, the "Madhyamāgama (MA)". Likewise, the Pali "Saṁyutta Nikāya (SN)" lines up with the Chinese "Saṁyuktāgama (SA)", and so on. I am unsure about the extent of correlation between Vinayas as I'm not a monk and have never had cause to investigate that, however it is clear that these agamas contain no crossover with the Theravada Abhidhamma.

- My sense is that a lot of the schools who set about making their own Abhidhammas and commentaries did so because they wanted to be the ones to "own" the definitive interpretation of the Buddhavacana discourses, which they had all inherited. This is why only a sect that had prepared its own sectarian doctrine would also be the only one to preserve it, and hence why the Theravada Abhidhamma and commentaries exist only within Theravada - nowhere else.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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