What is the eye?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:17 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:24 am
form wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 am Better apply common sense when trying to interpret sutta materials. Common sense will be more important than pali mastery alone.
Ok.
What I am trying to prove here is that Sutta alone we cant explain OP question.
We need to know the Abhidhamma as it gives a logical answer, whether it is right or wrong.
As per the attached table, the Great Elements and the Gocara Rupa are called the Rupa as per Sutta
internal Pasada Rupa is called the eye.
So when the Rupa contact Pasada Rupa eye-consciousness (as per Sutta) or Citta (as per Abhidhamma arises)
So as per Abhidhamma both Rupa and Pasada Rupa come under 28 Rupa.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
The suttas explain that sense-consciousness arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. Why is that not sufficient?

IMO the purpose of this formulation is to relegate consciousness to just another dependently arising phenomena. As compared to some other schools of thought where consciousness has a special status.
If you think that is sufficient it is fine.
But to think that consciousness is nothing more than a physical process is quite a realisation and I am sure many in this forum will not agree with that.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
form
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by form »

I tend to use physiological and psychological approach to examine the working mechanism of internal and external sense bases. What I am still not exactly sure is the word form and its base contact when it is mentioned by itself in certain parts of the suttas. Following it, there are no repetitions on the other 5 sense bases and their correspondence external stimulus. That puzzled me what is this form and whether its meaning is as one of the six sense bases or by itself has other type of meaning like a consciousness in a dream with only visual field.
Spiny Norman
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by Spiny Norman »

form wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:01 am I tend to use physiological and psychological approach to examine the working mechanism of internal and external sense bases. What I am still not exactly sure is the word form and its base contact when it is mentioned by itself in certain parts of the suttas. Following it, there are no repetitions on the other 5 sense bases and their correspondence external stimulus. That puzzled me what is this form and whether its meaning is as one of the six sense bases or by itself has other type of meaning like a consciousness in a dream with only visual field.
The suttas only seem to deal with waking consciousness, though possibly dream images could be considered as mind-objects.

Anyway, to use colloquial English, I think it's just saying that seeing stuff depends on the ability to see, and something to see. Or hearing stuff depends on the ability to hear, and something to hear.
So for example in a pitch black cave, you still have the ability to see, but there is nothing to see - so you don't see anything.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
form
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by form »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am
form wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:01 am I tend to use physiological and psychological approach to examine the working mechanism of internal and external sense bases. What I am still not exactly sure is the word form and its base contact when it is mentioned by itself in certain parts of the suttas. Following it, there are no repetitions on the other 5 sense bases and their correspondence external stimulus. That puzzled me what is this form and whether its meaning is as one of the six sense bases or by itself has other type of meaning like a consciousness in a dream with only visual field.
The suttas only seem to deal with waking consciousness, though possibly dream images could be considered as mind-objects.

Anyway, to use colloquial English, I think it's just saying that seeing stuff depends on the ability to see, and something to see. Or hearing stuff depends on the ability to hear, and something to hear.
So for example in a pitch black cave, you still have the ability to see, but there is nothing to see - so you don't see anything.
Let me find a specific example later. I would like to hear your view.
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robertk
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by robertk »

visuddhimagga
PATH OF PURIFICATION Part 3: Understanding (Paññá)
Xiv 47. 1. There is what is called the “eye” in the world. That looks like a blue lotus
petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light
circles. The eye [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the
middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the]
eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those
who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye’s seven layers like oil sprinkled on
seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose
[respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a
warrior prince is by four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing,
and fanning. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it
is maintained by life; it is f rnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch.
XVIII, §5); it is the size of a mere louse’s head; and it duly serves both as physical
basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of
the cognitive series].
48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma:
“The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object
Is small and it is subtle, too, no bigger, than a louse’s head.”
SarathW
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by SarathW »

robertk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:19 pm visuddhimagga
PATH OF PURIFICATION Part 3: Understanding (Paññá)
Xiv 47. 1. There is what is called the “eye” in the world. That looks like a blue lotus
petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light
circles. The eye [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the
middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the]
eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those
who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye’s seven layers like oil sprinkled on
seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose
[respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a
warrior prince is by four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing,
and fanning. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it
is maintained by life; it is f rnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch.
XVIII, §5); it is the size of a mere louse’s head; and it duly serves both as physical
basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of
the cognitive series].

48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma:
“The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object
Is small and it is subtle, too, no bigger, than a louse’s head.”
I believe this is what Abhidhamma referred to as Chkkhu Pasada?
Why it is not the kaya?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by pegembara »

Without the eye, one cannot see forms.

The "eye" would include - the cornea, lens, retina, optic nerves, the visual pathways, the visual cortex and many other things not mentioned.
The eye would include matter as per definition.

Without attention (contact) the form will also not be seen. For example, not seeing the missing keys right under your nose.
Nama and rupa(and consciousness) are conjoined when rupa is mentioned. Rupa is completely passive unlike nama.
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact.
Nama is described as “attention, feeling, perception, volition”. And rupa is described as material form, the form making up this body (blood, bones, liquid of the joints etc.) and external form.

The aggregate of consciousness is always found together with namarupa, it can not be found apart from namarupa.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... pa/4600/16
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 am
If you think that is sufficient it is fine.
But to think that consciousness is nothing more than a physical process is quite a realisation and I am sure many in this forum will not agree with that.
You are always conscious of "something" even if that something is the concept of "nothing" or the perception of "I am or I exist". It would be expected that the vast majority would not accept this.
Let's see what the Buddha or suttas has to say-
"It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.' But this monk Sāti, the Fisherman's Son, through his own poor grasp [of the Dhamma], has not only slandered us but has also dug himself up [by the root], producing much demerit for himself. That will lead to this worthless man's long-term harm & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: is consciousness self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making, does it arise spontaneously?"

"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
asahi
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by asahi »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:57 am
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.

Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact.

The aggregate of consciousness is always found together with namarupa, it can not be found apart from namarupa.


Apparently nama does require rupa without which they dont come into being .
No bashing No gossiping
pegembara
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by pegembara »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:46 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:57 am
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.

Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact.

The aggregate of consciousness is always found together with namarupa, it can not be found apart from namarupa.


Apparently nama does require rupa without which they dont come into being .
Ideas, concepts, imagination, feelings are not rupa and yet we can become aware of them. :shrug:
For example- remembering past insults.

So it's more like rupa requiring nama instead.
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
asahi
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by asahi »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:26 am Ideas, concepts, imagination, feelings are not rupa and yet we can become aware of them. :shrug:
For example- remembering past insults.
Dear Pengembara

Do you not already have a physical body intact now while you are remembering past insults ?

:thanks:
No bashing No gossiping
pegembara
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by pegembara »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:35 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:26 am Ideas, concepts, imagination, feelings are not rupa and yet we can become aware of them. :shrug:
For example- remembering past insults.
Dear Pengembara

Do you not already have a physical body intact now while you are remembering past insults ?

:thanks:
Are you aware of your body at all times?
Do you never have your attention somewhere that you are not aware of your body? :shrug:

How can the four elements know anything?
Are you even aware that you are shedding "your" skin all the time?

In my opinion, it is easier just to take nama-rupa as the experienced.
ie. sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts, feelings, perceptions, volition etc.
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
asahi
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by asahi »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:37 am pegembara wrote: ↑
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.
Please refers back to above .

If nama doesnt require rupa , this means nama is something that standalone apart from rupa according to you or you meant something else .
No bashing No gossiping
pegembara
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Re: What is the eye?

Post by pegembara »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:46 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:37 am pegembara wrote: ↑
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.
Please refers back to above .

If nama doesnt require rupa , this means nama is something that standalone apart from rupa according to you or you meant something else .
Are these -feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, concepts- rupa? :shrug:
The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.
However
Do you not already have a physical body intact now while you are remembering past insults ?
Without a physical form or rupa, how can "you" even be insulted?
Nama and rupa are closely linked but not the same.
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
asahi
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: What is the eye?

Post by asahi »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:00 am
asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:46 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:37 am pegembara wrote: ↑
But nama doesn't require rupa eg. feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, formulating concepts.
Please refers back to above .

If nama doesnt require rupa , this means nama is something that standalone apart from rupa according to you or you meant something else .
Are these -feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, concepts- rupa? :shrug:
The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.
Dear P

Physical body (rupa) and nama are conjoined . You cant separate them .
As soon this body became corpse the nama dont arise .
No bashing No gossiping
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