Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
Imo eyes (ie 5 sense bases) and 5 sense objects are the derived form (rupa ie element) . The four great elements are felt by the physical body through touching and sight of form through eyes .
asahi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:31 am
Imo eyes (ie 5 sense bases) and 5 sense objects are the derived form (rupa ie element) . The four great elements are felt by the physical body through touching and sight of form through eyes .
Are you replying this based on Sutta or Abhidhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:20 am
What is the eye?
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
I think it is straight forward that the form is Rupa. (earth,water,fire and wind)
Is eye also another type of Rupa?
If you look at MN140, the physical organ of the eye would be included in internal elements (mahabhuta).
However in your MN18 quote, "eye" is short-hand for "ability to see" or "properly functioning eye".
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
Whatever the eye is, the sutta above says consciousness arises dependent upon it. In other words, the Buddha never taught a mind-first or mind-only doctrine.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
Whatever the eye is, the sutta above says consciousness arises dependent upon it. In other words, the Buddha never taught a mind-first or mind-only doctrine.
I agree but the question is whether the eye is Rupa or Nama.
The point here is the object's contact with the eye.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:20 am
What is the eye?
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.
I think it is straight forward that the form is Rupa. (earth,water,fire and wind)
Is eye also another type of Rupa?
If you look at MN140, the physical organ of the eye would be included in internal elements (mahabhuta).
However in your MN18 quote, "eye" is short-hand for "ability to see" or "properly functioning eye".
So what is a properly functioning eye if it is not eye consciousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
I think it is straight forward that the form is Rupa. (earth,water,fire and wind)
Is eye also another type of Rupa?
If you look at MN140, the physical organ of the eye would be included in internal elements (mahabhuta).
However in your MN18 quote, "eye" is short-hand for "ability to see" or "properly functioning eye".
So what is a properly functioning eye if it is not eye consciousness?
I think it's one of the internal sense-bases (ayatana).
So generally sense-consciousness arises in dependence upon sense-base (internal ayatana) and sense-object (external ayatana).
Obviously sense-bases depend on the presence of physical sense-organs.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:45 am Abhidhmma.
What is that form which is the sphere of vision?
The eye, that is to say the sentient organ, derived from the Great Phenomena .
What is that form which is the sphere of [visible] form?
The form which, derived from the great principles, is visible under the appearance of colour and reacting—
is blue,
yellow,
red,
white,
black,
What is that form which is the sphere of visible form?
That form which, derived from the Great Phenomena, is visible under the appearance of colour and produces impact … on which form, visible and reacting, the eye, invisible and reacting, has impinged, impinges, will, or may impinge
form wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 am
Better apply common sense when trying to interpret sutta materials. Common sense will be more important than pali mastery alone.
form wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 am
Better apply common sense when trying to interpret sutta materials. Common sense will be more important than pali mastery alone.
Ok.
What I am trying to prove here is that Sutta alone we cant explain OP question.
We need to know the Abhidhamma as it gives a logical answer, whether it is right or wrong.
As per the attached table, the Great Elements and the Gocara Rupa are called the Rupa as per Sutta
internal Pasada Rupa is called the eye.
So when the Rupa contact Pasada Rupa eye-consciousness (as per Sutta) or Citta (as per Abhidhamma arises)
So as per Abhidhamma both Rupa and Pasada Rupa come under 28 Rupa.
form wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 am
Better apply common sense when trying to interpret sutta materials. Common sense will be more important than pali mastery alone.
Ok.
What I am trying to prove here is that Sutta alone we cant explain OP question.
We need to know the Abhidhamma as it gives a logical answer, whether it is right or wrong.
As per the attached table, the Great Elements and the Gocara Rupa are called the Rupa as per Sutta
internal Pasada Rupa is called the eye.
So when the Rupa contact Pasada Rupa eye-consciousness (as per Sutta) or Citta (as per Abhidhamma arises)
So as per Abhidhamma both Rupa and Pasada Rupa come under 28 Rupa.
The suttas explain that sense-consciousness arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. Why is that not sufficient?
IMO the purpose of this formulation is to relegate consciousness to just another dependently arising phenomena. As compared to some other schools of thought where consciousness has a special status.
