What is the eye?

[pegembara]

Please refers back to above .

If nama doesnt require rupa , this means nama is something that standalone apart from rupa according to you or you meant something else .

Are these -feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, concepts- rupa?

The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.

Dear P

Physical body (rupa) and nama are conjoined . You cant separate them .
As soon this body became corpse the nama dont arise .

How about a mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory? Which part of rupa is involved in his awareness?
Don't say his brain is involved because it is not at that time within his field of awareness or consciousness.

I think the difference in opinion is because you are not talking about direct experience.
If you are brain dead, the body isn't a corpse yet but there is no namarupa or experience to speak of.

[asahi]

How about a mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory? Which part of rupa is involved in his awareness?
Don't say his brain is involved because it is not at that time within his field of awareness or consciousness.

I think the difference in opinion is because you are not talking about direct experience.
If you are brain dead, the body isn't a corpse yet but there is no namarupa or experience to speak of.

A mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory will have in his minds the numbering symbols or any writing alphabets which are all a kind of rupa or form .
The direct experience needs to first have your physical body with all its parts (the rupa) intact , you are breathing (which needs to have a body) so it does require the rupa , before you have feeling , intention , thoughts and ideas , concepts .
Btw if you are taking the term namarupa as experiences which imo is not proper .

[pegembara]

A mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory will have in his minds the numbering symbols or any writing alphabets which are all a kind of rupa or form .
The direct experience needs to first have your physical body with all its parts (the rupa) intact , you are breathing (which needs to have a body) so it does require the rupa , before you have feeling , intention , thoughts and ideas , concepts .
Btw if you are taking the term namarupa as experiences which imo is not proper .

As mentioned, it is a matter of personal opinion that namarupa is equivalent to the experienced.
In other words, the six senses are all involved.

What do you consider is the proper interpretation for namarupa?
You might try answering on the other thread.

[asahi]

A mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory will have in his minds the numbering symbols or any writing alphabets which are all a kind of rupa or form .
The direct experience needs to first have your physical body with all its parts (the rupa) intact , you are breathing (which needs to have a body) so it does require the rupa , before you have feeling , intention , thoughts and ideas , concepts .
Btw if you are taking the term namarupa as experiences which imo is not proper .

As mentioned, it is a matter of personal opinion that namarupa is equivalent to the experienced.
In other words, the six senses are all involved.

What do you consider is the proper interpretation for namarupa?
You might try answering on the other thread.

Personal opinion should have a sutta reference otherwise no way to affirm its correctness . I will leave Namarupa is what to others to illuminate .

[Spiny Norman]

Please refers back to above .

If nama doesnt require rupa , this means nama is something that standalone apart from rupa according to you or you meant something else .

Are these -feeling, intention, thoughts and ideas, concepts- rupa?

The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form.

Dear P

Physical body (rupa) and nama are conjoined . You cant separate them .
As soon this body became corpse the nama dont arise .

Yes, nama and rupa are conjoined, the difficulty is in agreeing what nama-rupa is, practically speaking. Is it naming form? Is it everything we're conscious of? Is it mentality-materiality? Is it mind-body? Something else?

[pegembara]

A mathematician thinking of a new formula or theory will have in his minds the numbering symbols or any writing alphabets which are all a kind of rupa or form .
The direct experience needs to first have your physical body with all its parts (the rupa) intact , you are breathing (which needs to have a body) so it does require the rupa , before you have feeling , intention , thoughts and ideas , concepts .
Btw if you are taking the term namarupa as experiences which imo is not proper .

As mentioned, it is a matter of personal opinion that namarupa is equivalent to the experienced.
In other words, the six senses are all involved.

What do you consider is the proper interpretation for namarupa?
You might try answering on the other thread.

Personal opinion should have a sutta reference otherwise no way to affirm its correctness . I will leave Namarupa is what to others to illuminate .

Rupa in the context of namarupa is not a personal opinion but clearly defined in the suttas. Matter or derived from matter. Something that you can feel even with your eyes closed. Hardness, wetness, warmth, motion, pain, itch, hunger, thirst - "earth, water, fire and wind".

Numbering symbols or any alphabets, ideas, concepts, feelings, intentions, perception are NOT rupa.

And why do you call it ‘form’? Because it is afflicted, thus it is called ‘form.’ Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. SN 22.79

Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called nama.

The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called rupa.

Good luck with regards to what nama is.

[asahi]

Numbering symbols or any alphabets, ideas, concepts, feelings, intentions, perception are NOT rupa.

As you are looking at highlighted words above arent that is rupa or form ?
Now say you remembering in mind highlighted above and then close your eyes you imagine it in your mind , that is not rupa ?

But i didnt include the rupa per thr highlighted in blue above in my previous post above . Thats your opinion . Please make sure i only stressed the numbers and alphabets as rupa .




Good luck to you .

[Spiny Norman]

Numbering symbols or any alphabets, ideas, concepts, feelings, intentions, perception are NOT rupa.

As you are looking at highlighted words above arent that is rupa or form ?
Now say you remembering in mind highlighted above and then close your eyes you imagine it in your mind , that is not rupa ?




Good luck to you .

Stuff arising in the mind is mental rather than material. But again, there are different interpretations of nama-rupa.

[asahi]

Numbering symbols or any alphabets, ideas, concepts, feelings, intentions, perception are NOT rupa.

As you are looking at highlighted words above arent that is rupa or form ?
Now say you remembering in mind highlighted above and then close your eyes you imagine it in your mind , that is not rupa ?




Good luck to you .

Stuff arising in the mind is mental rather than material. But again, there are different interpretations of nama-rupa.

I didnt say it is "material" but rather form or image which can be included in the rupa meaning .

[Spiny Norman]

As you are looking at highlighted words above arent that is rupa or form ?
Now say you remembering in mind highlighted above and then close your eyes you imagine it in your mind , that is not rupa ?




Good luck to you .

Stuff arising in the mind is mental rather than material. But again, there are different interpretations of nama-rupa.

I didnt say it is "material" but rather form or image which can be included in the rupa meaning .

Looking at a tree: visible form "appearing" at the eye-base.
Imagining a tree: mental image "appearing" at the mind-base.

[asahi]

Looking at a tree: visible form "appearing" at the eye-base.
Imagining a tree: mental image "appearing" at the mind-base.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
All dictionaries
Rūpa
neuter
form, figure, appearance, principle of form, etc.


Perceiving form internally, someone sees visions externally, limited, both pretty and ugly.
Ajjhattaṁ rūpasaññī eko bahiddhā rūpāni passati parittāni suvaṇṇadubbaṇṇāni.

[pegembara]

The tree is something that we can feel with our hands, a material thing unlike numbers, shapes or words like love.

[asahi]

Are we talking rupa as materiality or including as image or form or appearance whether externally or internally ?

[Spiny Norman]

Are we talking rupa as materiality or including as image or form or appearance whether externally or internally ?

The stock definition in the suttas is the four great elements (mahabhuta) and the form (rupa) derived from them (or appropriated from them?).
Experienced via the five sense-bases.

[asahi]

The stock definition in the suttas is the four great elements (mahabhuta) and the form (rupa) derived from them (or appropriated from them?).
Experienced via the five sense-bases.

Iyo what are the 4 great elements per your experience ? What are the rupa derived from it then per your experience ? Does the 4 GE & derived rupa restricted to the five sense bases ?