from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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SarathW
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from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by SarathW »

1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
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pegembara
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by pegembara »

The second scenario has only rupa in my opinion. Form and its derivative. But a requirement is attention which comes under nama.

Eg. If you are looking for someone in a crowd, you don't "see" other faces.
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Tennok
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Tennok »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:13 am 1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
Hi, Sarath W.

Actually, I was wondering about similiar thing. The place and role of consciousness in D.O suttas, vs conciousness coming for sense contacts, in other suttas. They seem kind of different to me.

The consciousness which arises in D.O happends before phasa, the sense contacts. So is it like introvertic consciousness, I wonder, shut from senses? In the sutta you quoted, I don't see sankharas mentioned, btw. Wonder why?

Your second quote shows counsciouscness arriving after the typical sense contact. Extravertic one, I would say.

Refering to your questions, mind is one of the 6 senses, isn't it? So nama here could be one of the 6 senses. The mind - consciousness, same like eye - consciousness?

I'm just trying to think and learn...So don't throw rocks, please. And I hope some other members will give more insightfull comments here.
SarathW
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by SarathW »

The consciousness which arises in D.O happends before phasa, the sense contacts. So is it like introvertic consciousness, I wonder, shut from senses? In the sutta you quoted, I don't see sankharas mentioned, btw. Wonder why?
Perhaps it is due to the three life module in Dependent Origination.
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DooDoot
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by DooDoot »

Tennok wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:41 am I'm just trying to think and learn...So don't throw rocks, please.
:console:

Dependent origination is explained in suttas in many ways, from in brief to in detail, such as:

1. In brief:
MN 28 wrote:One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering.

MN 28
2. From sense bases without consciousness:
MN 38 wrote:On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
3. From sense bases including consciousness:
MN 148 wrote:Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is impossible.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
4. From nama-rupa:
SN 12.65 wrote:At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ... ‘When what exists does consciousness come to be? By what is consciousness conditioned? ’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is name-and-form, consciousness comes to be; consciousness has name-and-form as its condition.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi
5. In detail, from ignorance:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In many places, the suttas say consciousness cannot arise without a requisite condition:
MN 38 wrote:Good, bhikkhus. It is good that you understand the Dhamma taught by me thus. For in many ways I have stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.

Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
SN 22.53 wrote:Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, consciousness must always have a requisite condition.

1. In sense organ explanation, the sense organs are the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

2. In namarupa explanation, namarupa is the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

3. In detailed explanation, sankhara is the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

:smile:
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pegembara
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by pegembara »

‘When what does not exist does consciousness not come to be? With the cessation of what does the cessation of consciousness come about?’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is no name-and-form, consciousness does not come to be; with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness.

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘I have discovered this path to enlightenment, that is, with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness comes cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

“‘Cessation, cessation’—thus, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi
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DooDoot
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:18 am Perhaps it is due to the three life module in Dependent Origination.
Unlikely, because the Buddha never mentioned three lifetimes.

In nama-rupa explanation, such as in SN 12.65, when Gotama was searching, the arising of defilement starts at craving. Nama-rupa, consciousness, sense bases & contract merely refer to neutral mind body, such as in many suttas, as follows:
SN 12.44 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

SN 12.44
But in the detailed explanation, such as in MN 9, the arising of defilement starts at ignorance-asava.
MN 9 wrote:From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fermentation... From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:smile:
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SarathW
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:40 am
‘When what does not exist does consciousness not come to be? With the cessation of what does the cessation of consciousness come about?’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is no name-and-form, consciousness does not come to be; with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness.

“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘I have discovered this path to enlightenment, that is, with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness comes cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

“‘Cessation, cessation’—thus, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi
HI Pegembara
What exactly is cessation mean?
Has the living Buddha accomplished the cessation of consciousness?
For instance when living Arahant accomplish Nirodha Samaptthi, there is no consciousness present.
If we say that the cessation of Name-and-from that means Name-and-form is mental not physical?
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:51 am
HI Pegembara
What exactly is cessation mean?
Has the living Buddha accomplished the cessation of consciousness?
For instance when living Arahant accomplish Nirodha Samaptthi, there is no consciousness present.
If we say that the cessation of Name-and-from that means Name-and-form is mental not physical?
In a way, you need to have consciousness to have any experiences. But without anything physical like sound or light, there is no experience either.
All of us have had cessation of consciousness before and yet cannot claim to be enlightened.
We just continue on as before.
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:13 am 1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
Both quotes are describing requisite conditions for sense-consciousness (vinanna).

Note that in DO vinnana is also 6-fold sense consciousness (see SN12.2), the same as MN18.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Quote 2 says that sense-consciousness has two requisite conditions, ie sense-base and sense-object. It appears to describe how sense-consciousness arises functionally.

Quote 1 says that sense-consciousness has one requisite condition, ie nama-rupa.
Explaining Quote 1 is more difficult, because it depends upon your interpretation of nama-rupa, and your interpretation of DO.
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mjaviem
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by mjaviem »

Can we say the five aggregates subject to clinging are consciousness, nama (volitional formations, perceptions, feelings) and rupa (forms)?
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by chownah »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:13 am 1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
There are two different meanings for "form"....in 1) above it is talking about the elements....in 2) it is talking about the object which is sensed by the eye.......the form that the eye senses is often thought of as being the light which impinges on the eye just like it is sound which impinges on the ear and odor is what impinges on the nose and taste is what impinges on the tongue....
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Tennok
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Tennok »

=DooDoot post_id=628782 time=1623817467 user_id=14001]

Therefore, consciousness must always have a requisite condition.

1. In sense organ explanation, the sense organs are the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

2. In namarupa explanation, namarupa is the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

3. In detailed explanation, sankhara is the requisite condition for the arising of consciousness.

Thanks, Doo Doot. A hug instead of a rock, nice. :namaste:

That's a neat list of suttas. I've read the one obout the Ancient City before, but I focused on different aspects. It has this interesting moment:
By what is name-and-form conditioned?’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is consciousness, name-and-form comes to be; name-and-form has consciousness as its condition.’
T
“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘When what exists does consciousness come to be? By what is consciousness conditioned? ’ Then, bhikkhus, through careful attention, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: ‘When there is name-and-form, consciousness comes to be; consciousness has name-and-form as its condition.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi

Nama - rupa conditions the vinnana, and vinnana conditions the nama - rupa. it's like a water creating a steam, while steam is creating the water, both at the same time. I need to reflect more on that.

And i'm wondering, refering to Sarath W.'s original post...this "nama" in "nama - rupa"... It conditions a consciousness, and it is being conditioned by it, but still, it's something different. Then what is it? What is a mind, a mentality, or a mental component, appart from a consciousness? I mean, it hard to imagine any mental content, appart from a consciousness, which records it.

And yet in the meditation we do it. We separate the knower, and the content, that he watches. Vinnana vs Nama Rupa.

Another line of explanation about nama rupa that I've heard, is that the "nama" is a basic ability of the mind, to add names and meanings to things. But this is already a job of sanna. :shrug:

Ancient Greeks had this big term Logos, a verbal, semantic and creative aspect of the human mind. And the Bible says, that at the beginning, there was a Word. A language, a potential, to name and distinguish things, which elevated us humans from the nature...But it had increased our suffering, too. Thanks to such words, as "death", we named some unpleasant truths, which animals probably don't think about. So a "name" in nama - rupa could be a big deal.
A human condition, really. :thinking:
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DooDoot
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by DooDoot »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 am Nama - rupa conditions the vinnana, and vinnana conditions the nama - rupa. it's like a water creating a steam, while steam is creating the water, both at the same time. I need to reflect more on that.
If nama-rupa is taken to mean 'mind-body', it means the mind-body creates consciousness while consciousness knows the mind-body. Gotama asked:

1. what is the condition for contact? Answer: sense bases

2. what is the condition for sense bases? Answer: mind-body

3. what is condition for mind-body? Answer: (it is known/experienced by) consciousness

4. what is condition for consciousness? Answer: mind-body

:hug:
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:13 am 1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
I think name here refers to the sense of location that arises due to contact.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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