from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by pegembara »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 am
And yet in the meditation we do it. We separate the knower, and the content, that he watches. Vinnana vs Nama Rupa.
Have you considered that the "knower" cannot be separated from the "known"? That they are dependently originated. Like sheaves of reed.
In the same way, the "thinker" cannot be separated from "thoughts". As in there is no independent agent.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:06 pm
Tennok wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 am
And yet in the meditation we do it. We separate the knower, and the content, that he watches. Vinnana vs Nama Rupa.
Have you considered that the "knower" cannot be separated from the "known"? That they are dependently originated. Like sheaves of reed.
In the same way, the "thinker" cannot be separated from "thoughts". As in there is no independent agent.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
Interesting, but not answering the OP question. Most DO suttas don't describe this mutual dependence, they describe what the OP laid out.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
pegembara
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:07 pm
pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:06 pm
Tennok wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 am
And yet in the meditation we do it. We separate the knower, and the content, that he watches. Vinnana vs Nama Rupa.
Have you considered that the "knower" cannot be separated from the "known"? That they are dependently originated. Like sheaves of reed.
In the same way, the "thinker" cannot be separated from "thoughts". As in there is no independent agent.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
Interesting, but not answering the OP question. Most DO suttas don't describe this mutual dependence, they describe what the OP laid out.
That's true but as Sariputta said, what I have tried to convey can be understood by intelligent people.

No thinker without thoughts,
No experiencer without the experience.

Like sheaves of reed.

Only the seen, the heard and cognized - no one who sees, hears or cognizes.
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

If it's just about non-duality, why did the Buddha create a dual model in the first place?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by asahi »

Imo the sutta talks about seen as the seen doesnt meant non duality . The meaning should be that the attachment isnt there , the seen is just a eyes conscoiusness .
No bashing No gossiping
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:10 am Imo the sutta talks about seen as the seen doesnt meant non duality . The meaning should be that the attachment isnt there , the seen is just a eyes conscoiusness .
Is the "the seen" eye-consciousness, or is it the visual sense-object?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:16 am
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:10 am Imo the sutta talks about seen as the seen doesnt meant non duality . The meaning should be that the attachment isnt there , the seen is just a eyes conscoiusness .
Is the "the seen" eye-consciousness, or is it the visual sense-object?
Can you know the visual sense object itself ?
No bashing No gossiping
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:18 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:16 am
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:10 am Imo the sutta talks about seen as the seen doesnt meant non duality . The meaning should be that the attachment isnt there , the seen is just a eyes conscoiusness .
Is the "the seen" eye-consciousness, or is it the visual sense-object?
Can you know the visual sense object itself ?
Yes. That's the only thing we can know for sure.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:46 am Yes. That's the only thing we can know for sure.
I dont think you can know the object itself , not without labeling and interpretation , you only knows the "experience" in regard to the sense object .
No bashing No gossiping
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:56 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:46 am Yes. That's the only thing we can know for sure.
I dont think you can know the object itself , not without labeling and interpretation , you only knows the "experience" in regard to the sense object .
Yes, you're right. We experience perceptions of objects.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Tennok
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 2:02 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Tennok »

pegembara wrote:
Have you considered that the "knower" cannot be separated from the "known"? That they are dependently originated. Like sheaves of reed.
In the same way, the "thinker" cannot be separated from "thoughts". As in there is no independent agent.
Yes, of course. Good point. Yet, on a practical level, in meditation, various approaches are possible. For example, in some zen schools, they focus on overcoming the duality. Becoming one with your action, like a samurai with his katana cut...or a poor disciple with a potato, that he peels just now, during the working hours :smile: .

But in Theravada we often try to create the distance between the experience and the one who experiences it. You notice the kilesa, and thanks to the separation and the distance- and sati sampajanna - you don't succumb to them.

I remember in Nilambe meditation center, in Sri Lanka, they used to have those little books by a teacher named Godvin Samaratne. Good stuff. And one of them had a scary, dark cover, that looked like a famous painting"The shout" by Munch and a title "Be the outsider!". Author strongly advised to stay outside of your daily experience. To create a distance. As a former zen practicioner, I found it very strange at first.


metta & peace
Tennok
User avatar
Tennok
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 2:02 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Tennok »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:10 am Imo the sutta talks about seen as the seen doesnt meant non duality . The meaning should be that the attachment isnt there , the seen is just a eyes conscoiusness .
:goodpost:

On the other hand, a fully realized anatta, anicca and vosagga, may lead to the experience of non - duality, I guess. Is there anything dualistic left in Nibbana? It's just Sunnjata.

The Buddha taught us the ultimate truth, but most of us are not on ultimate level yet, so we have to practice in a dualistic way - like poor me. Couse our experience is dualistic.

It's like this old zen story. A master had a beloved son and the son died. And the master cried, a lot. His best disciple came and mocked him: You taught me about non duality all those years, you said everything is just an illusion! So why are you crying right now?

And the master wept: I know it's just an illusion...but it's a super illusion!

Perhaps Pegambra has reached the ultimate level already, I dunno :smile: .
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by form »

Name and form just means "stories" we form from our sense contact. This will be the practical explation that is useful to understand our experience. The extent can range from closer to actual and pure fantasies.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10176
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

form wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:22 am Name and form just means "stories" we form from our sense contact. This will be the practical explation that is useful to understand our experience. The extent can range from closer to actual and pure fantasies.
But here sense-consciousness arises in dependence upon name and form, as described in the DO suttas.
So how does 6-fold sense-consciousness arise in dependence upon "stories"?

And how does the description of nama-rupa in SN12.2 support the idea of it being "stories"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by form »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:56 am
form wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:22 am Name and form just means "stories" we form from our sense contact. This will be the practical explation that is useful to understand our experience. The extent can range from closer to actual and pure fantasies.
But here sense-consciousness arises in dependence upon name and form, as described in the DO suttas.
So how does 6-fold sense-consciousness arise in dependence upon "stories"?

And how does the description of nama-rupa in SN12.2 support the idea of it being "stories"?
The sutta that explain it as attention, intention etc. These made up the stories (Buddha called in I, mine, I am within this, another one I forgot), reality and fantasies mixed together. My modern hypothesis will add in mental associations in the part of DO as well.

Internal and external sense bases are the constant input bombardment unless one is guarding the senses.
Post Reply