from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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mjaviem
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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mjaviem wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:25 pm Can we say the five aggregates subject to clinging are consciousness, nama (volitional formations, perceptions, feelings) and rupa (forms)?
I mean, Is rupa forms? Are volitional formations, perceptions and feelings nama?

Can we say the following? That whatever material reality is out there (the four elements or atomic subparticles, or whatever) the important thing to human experience is that there are forms. And that whatever the reality of mind is, the important thing is there are perceptions of forms, feelings and volitional formations. And lastly that there is consciousness of all this.

Is it like this?
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DooDoot
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:54 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:25 pm Can we say the five aggregates subject to clinging are consciousness, nama (volitional formations, perceptions, feelings) and rupa (forms)?
I mean, Is rupa forms? Are volitional formations, perceptions and feelings nama?
No. Not really.

While nama certainly includes volition, perceptions & feelings, the purpose of the nama teaching is not to explain the five aggregates. Nama is defined as feeling, perception, volition, contact & attention.

"Nama" refers to "mental inclination" ("namati") and is taught to highlight the manifestation of "attention".

When the nama-rupa (mind-body) is polluted by ignorance it will generate "inappropriate attention".

Kind regards :smile:
MN 9 wrote:Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality (nama).

The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality (rupa).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
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form
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:54 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:25 pm Can we say the five aggregates subject to clinging are consciousness, nama (volitional formations, perceptions, feelings) and rupa (forms)?
I mean, Is rupa forms? Are volitional formations, perceptions and feelings nama?

Can we say the following? That whatever material reality is out there (the four elements or atomic subparticles, or whatever) the important thing to human experience is that there are forms. And that whatever the reality of mind is, the important thing is there are perceptions of forms, feelings and volitional formations. And lastly that there is consciousness of all this.

Is it like this?
All are thoughts and impulses. That is why dhammapada and AN started with all are mind-created.
SarathW
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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Tennok wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:41 am
Your second quote shows counsciouscness arriving after the typical sense contact. Extravertic one, I would say.

Refering to your questions, mind is one of the 6 senses, isn't it? So nama here could be one of the 6 senses. The mind - consciousness, same like eye - consciousness?

In my opinion the Nama in the first statement and the eye in the second statement are the same.
Because physical eye alone (eg: dead person) can't arise the consciousness.
This process of the second statement is clearly explained in Abhidhamma.
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 am This process of the second statement is clearly explained in Abhidhamma.
Where? Please quote it? Thanks :thanks:
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Assaji
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:13 am 1) from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Then:
2) Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises [similarly with the rest of the six senses]. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What is name in the second description?
The sixth sense, imagination (mano) and ideas (dhamma).
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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The strange thing is the "contact" in the Nama . Does Buddha taught 2 type of contact ? :shrug:
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:20 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:56 am This process of the second statement is clearly explained in Abhidhamma.
Where? Please quote it? Thanks :thanks:
Have you got a chance to read about 17 thought moments?
I know that you might argue that this 17 thought moment is not in Abhidhamma Pitaka and it is a late commentary.
:shrug:
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:18 pm
When the nama-rupa (mind-body) is polluted by ignorance it will generate "inappropriate attention".
No. In DO nama-rupa is always polluted by ignorance. Nama-rupa is always dependent on ignorance, and it only ceases when ignorance ceases. That's literally what the DO suttas say.

I think your Buddhadasa-style interpretation of DO is fundamentally flawed, and needs a major rethink.
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Re: from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:06 pm No. In DO nama-rupa is always polluted by ignorance. Nama-rupa is always dependent on ignorance, and it only ceases when ignorance ceases. That's literally what the DO suttas say.
No. The above comment is unsubstantiated. The suttas say the mind-body remain after ignorance ends. For example:
On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it, & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

MN 38
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible.

MN 148
:alien:
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:06 pmI think your Buddhadasa-style interpretation of DO is fundamentally flawed, and needs a major rethink.
The above is irrelevant. Take care with speech. Thanks :thanks:
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