Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
So, schism in Sangha is very bad and will cause immediate rebirth to Avici Hell in next immediate life, just like Ven. Devadatta. Furthermore, even while living, there will be no opportunity or potential for the one who caused schism to attain any of the Magga Phala.
Since causing schism is a deadly grave mistake, why people such as Devadatta or the Vajjiputtaka in the past did it?
Furthermore, isn't the schism causing the appearance of new Buddhist schools?
There were many of them such as The Sautrāntika or Sutravadin (Sanskrit, Suttavāda in Pali;), Sarvastivada, Vibhajjavada, Pudgalavada, Mulasarvastivada, then later Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Tantrayana, secular Buddhism, Dhammakaya, and many more...
How is it possible for a modern Buddhist to go through all these Buddhist schools, knowing that there are culprits among them?
And how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?
For myself, I relied on the history statement, whether it was stated by ancient texts or historians. Personally, I do accept the Pali canon that rehearsed and complied by the third council as the complete source, as Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa said when answering King Asoka's question on true lineage, Arahant said only "Vibhajjavada" remained faithful and carrying the true teachings of the Buddha. But that's just my preference.
How about the people here?
Do you try every school? Or just relying on modern science to do clarification about it? Or you choose the one suits you the most without caring the background story? Or you just relying solely on what you can read on the internet?
Why schism?
Re: Why schism?
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Why schism?
When we know the True Dhamma, we see the gradual change within Theravada, such as Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, Patisambhidamagga, Abhidhamma, until Mahayana. Mahayana plainly comes from Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, even Abhidhamma. We see phases used scores of times in Buddhavamsa found in five or six (fake) Suttas. We know Theravada is not always Buddhavaca. Theravada appears obviously a religion created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka. Buddhism died in India (because common people could not distinguish it from Hinduism), nearly died a few times in Sri Lanka. In Thailand & Burma, Buddhism is mixed with Animism, Ancestor & Spirit Worship, Brahminism, Hinduism, etc. For example, Buddhist King of Thailand is reincarnation of Vishnu. When the suttas say the Dhamma would only last 500 years, this appears quite true. Schism happened long time ago. Theravada itself appears to be a schism.
It is both from chronological point of view and as a class of poetical composition, [that] the
Pali Apadāna ranks with the Buddhavaṁsa and Cariyāpiṭaka. According to the traditional
enumeration of the Buddhist canonical texts, these are reckoned as the last three works
of the Khuddaka Nikāya. Even from the doctrinal point of view the three works together
show the Mahāyāna Buddhism in the making.
Buddhakhetta and Buddhāpadāna by Mr. Dwijendralal Barua, M.A
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
-
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm
Re: Why schism?
So by this mean, you are saying I am doing schism here? By asking question?DooDoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pmSome folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Since you wrote here
"Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism."
What makes you think that? Any elaboration?
Deleted
Re: Why schism?
The OP appears to be doing more than mere asking questions. The OP gives the impression of a witch-hunt for "culprits".Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pm So by this mean, you are saying I am doing schism here? By asking question?
A Buddhist that has taken proper refuge has chanted the Dhamma Refuge many times, which is:Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pmAnd how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?
In SN 56.11, for example, Kondanna realised the True Dhamma, which was:The Dhamma is perfectly spoken by the Blessed One, visible here-&-now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to peace; Nibbana), experienced individually by the wise for themselves.
Kondanna did not realise what Buddhaghosa declared, namely:All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.
Twelve-fold eternal voidness; all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6236
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: Why schism?
What about madhiyamaka school?DooDoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pmSome folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
-
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm
Re: Why schism?
Well, doodoot claimed that Theravada was a product of schism in his post, but the unfortunate event occurred pre-asoka.
Then he said Theravada was "created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka. " Here he implied that Asoka created it.
So what is he talking about? What was you agreed on?
Deleted
-
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm
Re: Why schism?
That doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:22 pmWhat about madhiyamaka school?DooDoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pmSome folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Deleted
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6236
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: Why schism?
To be honest, i find vism ,vimut ,middle way school, abhidhamma all 100% follow ebt buddhism... they are one and same teaching ... i dont see any contradictionDhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pmThat doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
- confusedlayman
- Posts: 6236
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
- Location: Human Realm (as of now)
Re: Why schism?
Because they are spelled differrntly?DooDoot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pmSome folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
-
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm
Re: Why schism?
I take the Pali Tipitaka that finalised during 3rd council as orthodox canon. Since Visuddhimagga is aligned with Suttanta, Vinaya, and Abhidhamma, I take this postcanon work as an orthodox book too.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:45 pmTo be honest, i find vism ,vimut ,middle way school, abhidhamma all 100% follow ebt buddhism... they are one and same teaching ... i dont see any contradictionDhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pmThat doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.
For Vimuttimagga, I put it a 50%-50% since it was from the controversial Abhayagiri sect.
Deleted
Re: Why schism?
Where u there to know what actually happened there? The Third Buddhist council was convened in about 240 BCE, hundreds of years after the Buddha passed away.Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:58 pm I take the Pali Tipitaka that finalised during 3rd council ...
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Why schism?
A Buddhist that has taken proper refuge has chanted the Dhamma Refuge many times, which is:Dhammavamsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pmAnd how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?
In SN 56.11, for example, Kondanna realised the True Dhamma, which was:The Dhamma is perfectly spoken by the Blessed One, visible here-&-now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to peace; Nibbana), experienced individually by the wise for themselves.
Kondanna did not realise what Buddhaghosa declared, namely:All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.
Twelve-fold eternal voidness; all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
-
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm
Re: Why schism?
So far what I read through Panna bhumi niddesa of Visuddhimagga, nothing was contradicted with Suttanta core teachings. And that quotation was found in Visuddhimagga and gave explanation too.
So you asked me why I placed my confidence on 3rd council as I'm not there? Well, because Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa and all fellow Arahants finalised the Pali Tipitaka unbroken from second council and refuted the extremism such as Eternalism and Nihilism, thus emphasizing the Middle Path, a true Vibhajjavadin like Buddha did.
And another reason because other sects are void of Arahants.
So you asked me why I placed my confidence on 3rd council as I'm not there? Well, because Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa and all fellow Arahants finalised the Pali Tipitaka unbroken from second council and refuted the extremism such as Eternalism and Nihilism, thus emphasizing the Middle Path, a true Vibhajjavadin like Buddha did.
And another reason because other sects are void of Arahants.
Last edited by Dhammavamsa on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Deleted