Why schism?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dhammavamsa
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Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.

So, schism in Sangha is very bad and will cause immediate rebirth to Avici Hell in next immediate life, just like Ven. Devadatta. Furthermore, even while living, there will be no opportunity or potential for the one who caused schism to attain any of the Magga Phala.

Since causing schism is a deadly grave mistake, why people such as Devadatta or the Vajjiputtaka in the past did it?

Furthermore, isn't the schism causing the appearance of new Buddhist schools?

There were many of them such as The Sautrāntika or Sutravadin (Sanskrit, Suttavāda in Pali;), Sarvastivada, Vibhajjavada, Pudgalavada, Mulasarvastivada, then later Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Tantrayana, secular Buddhism, Dhammakaya, and many more...

How is it possible for a modern Buddhist to go through all these Buddhist schools, knowing that there are culprits among them?

And how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?

For myself, I relied on the history statement, whether it was stated by ancient texts or historians. Personally, I do accept the Pali canon that rehearsed and complied by the third council as the complete source, as Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa said when answering King Asoka's question on true lineage, Arahant said only "Vibhajjavada" remained faithful and carrying the true teachings of the Buddha. But that's just my preference.

How about the people here?
Do you try every school? Or just relying on modern science to do clarification about it? Or you choose the one suits you the most without caring the background story? Or you just relying solely on what you can read on the internet?
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DooDoot
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Re: Why schism?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Why schism?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am internet?
When we know the True Dhamma, we see the gradual change within Theravada, such as Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, Patisambhidamagga, Abhidhamma, until Mahayana. Mahayana plainly comes from Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, even Abhidhamma. We see phases used scores of times in Buddhavamsa found in five or six (fake) Suttas. We know Theravada is not always Buddhavaca. Theravada appears obviously a religion created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka. Buddhism died in India (because common people could not distinguish it from Hinduism), nearly died a few times in Sri Lanka. In Thailand & Burma, Buddhism is mixed with Animism, Ancestor & Spirit Worship, Brahminism, Hinduism, etc. For example, Buddhist King of Thailand is reincarnation of Vishnu. When the suttas say the Dhamma would only last 500 years, this appears quite true. Schism happened long time ago. Theravada itself appears to be a schism. :smile:
It is both from chronological point of view and as a class of poetical composition, [that] the
Pali Apadāna ranks with the Buddhavaṁsa and Cariyāpiṭaka. According to the traditional
enumeration of the Buddhist canonical texts, these are reckoned as the last three works
of the Khuddaka Nikāya. Even from the doctrinal point of view the three works together
show the Mahāyāna Buddhism in the making.

Buddhakhetta and Buddhāpadāna by Mr. Dwijendralal Barua, M.A
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dhammavamsa
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Re: Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
So by this mean, you are saying I am doing schism here? By asking question?

Since you wrote here

"Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism."

What makes you think that? Any elaboration?
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DooDoot
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Re: Why schism?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pm So by this mean, you are saying I am doing schism here? By asking question?
The OP appears to be doing more than mere asking questions. The OP gives the impression of a witch-hunt for "culprits".
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pmAnd how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?
A Buddhist that has taken proper refuge has chanted the Dhamma Refuge many times, which is:
The Dhamma is perfectly spoken by the Blessed One, visible here-&-now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to peace; Nibbana), experienced individually by the wise for themselves.
In SN 56.11, for example, Kondanna realised the True Dhamma, which was:
All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.
Kondanna did not realise what Buddhaghosa declared, namely:
Twelve-fold eternal voidness; all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising. :x :roll:
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Why schism?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm We know Theravada is not always Buddhavaca. Theravada appears obviously a religion created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka.
agree on
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Re: Why schism?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
What about madhiyamaka school?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:16 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:01 pm We know Theravada is not always Buddhavaca. Theravada appears obviously a religion created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka.
agree on
Well, doodoot claimed that Theravada was a product of schism in his post, but the unfortunate event occurred pre-asoka.

Then he said Theravada was "created to spread Buddhism among worldly people, particularly under King Asoka. " Here he implied that Asoka created it.

So what is he talking about? What was you agreed on?
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Dhammavamsa
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Re: Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:22 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
What about madhiyamaka school?
That doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.
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Re: Why schism?

Post by confusedlayman »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:22 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
What about madhiyamaka school?
That doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.
To be honest, i find vism ,vimut ,middle way school, abhidhamma all 100% follow ebt buddhism... they are one and same teaching ... i dont see any contradiction
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Re: Why schism?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:50 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Buddha warned His followers not to commit 6 grave mistakes, and one of them is creating schism in Sangha.
Some folks just don't get it. Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Dhammavamsa, etc = schism.
Because they are spelled differrntly?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:45 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:22 pm

What about madhiyamaka school?
That doctrine gave me a "nihilism" vibe. I don't subscribe to it.
To be honest, i find vism ,vimut ,middle way school, abhidhamma all 100% follow ebt buddhism... they are one and same teaching ... i dont see any contradiction
I take the Pali Tipitaka that finalised during 3rd council as orthodox canon. Since Visuddhimagga is aligned with Suttanta, Vinaya, and Abhidhamma, I take this postcanon work as an orthodox book too.

For Vimuttimagga, I put it a 50%-50% since it was from the controversial Abhayagiri sect.
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Re: Why schism?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:58 pm I take the Pali Tipitaka that finalised during 3rd council ...
Where u there to know what actually happened there? :shrug: The Third Buddhist council was convened in about 240 BCE, hundreds of years after the Buddha passed away.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Why schism?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pmAnd how you differentiate which is the true teachings and which is not?
A Buddhist that has taken proper refuge has chanted the Dhamma Refuge many times, which is:
The Dhamma is perfectly spoken by the Blessed One, visible here-&-now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to peace; Nibbana), experienced individually by the wise for themselves.
In SN 56.11, for example, Kondanna realised the True Dhamma, which was:
All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.
Kondanna did not realise what Buddhaghosa declared, namely:
Twelve-fold eternal voidness; all that is subject to cessation is subject to re-arising. :x :roll:
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Why schism?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

So far what I read through Panna bhumi niddesa of Visuddhimagga, nothing was contradicted with Suttanta core teachings. And that quotation was found in Visuddhimagga and gave explanation too.

So you asked me why I placed my confidence on 3rd council as I'm not there? Well, because Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa and all fellow Arahants finalised the Pali Tipitaka unbroken from second council and refuted the extremism such as Eternalism and Nihilism, thus emphasizing the Middle Path, a true Vibhajjavadin like Buddha did.

And another reason because other sects are void of Arahants.
Last edited by Dhammavamsa on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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