Focusing like an Owl

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Moth
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Focusing like an Owl

Post by Moth »

In this talk Bhante references a sutta where the Buddha discourages meditating like "an owl hunting it's prey." Here is the timestamped clip:


Does anyone know which sutta mentions this? If this is true, it would be a very fundamental shift in my understanding of samadhi.

Thank you
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Nicolas »

Māratajjanīya Sutta (MN 50) wrote: Then, Evil One, the Mara Dusi took possession of those brahmin householders, telling them: 'Come now, abuse, revile, scold, and harass the virtuous bhikkhus of good character; then perhaps, when they are abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed by you, some change will come about in their minds whereby the Mara Dusi may find an opportunity.' Then, when the Mara Dusi had taken possession of the brahmin householders, they abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed the virtuous bhikkhus of good character thus: 'These bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, outmeditate, and mismeditate. Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, waiting for a mouse, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, so too, these bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet, claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate.' Now, Evil One, on that occasion most of those human beings, when they died, reappeared on the dissolution of the body, after death, in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

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Nicolas wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:03 pm
Māratajjanīya Sutta (MN 50) wrote: Then, Evil One, the Mara Dusi took possession of those brahmin householders, telling them: 'Come now, abuse, revile, scold, and harass the virtuous bhikkhus of good character; then perhaps, when they are abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed by you, some change will come about in their minds whereby the Mara Dusi may find an opportunity.' Then, when the Mara Dusi had taken possession of the brahmin householders, they abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed the virtuous bhikkhus of good character thus: 'These bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, outmeditate, and mismeditate. Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, waiting for a mouse, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, so too, these bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet, claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate.' Now, Evil One, on that occasion most of those human beings, when they died, reappeared on the dissolution of the body, after death, in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.
Thank you. This is confusing because it's coming from Mara.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

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Moth wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:39 pm
Nicolas wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:03 pm
Māratajjanīya Sutta (MN 50) wrote: Then, Evil One, the Mara Dusi took possession of those brahmin householders, telling them: 'Come now, abuse, revile, scold, and harass the virtuous bhikkhus of good character; then perhaps, when they are abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed by you, some change will come about in their minds whereby the Mara Dusi may find an opportunity.' Then, when the Mara Dusi had taken possession of the brahmin householders, they abused, reviled, scolded, and harassed the virtuous bhikkhus of good character thus: 'These bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, outmeditate, and mismeditate. Just as an owl on a branch waiting for a mouse meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a cat by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, waiting for a mouse, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, or just as a donkey unladen, standing by a door-post or a dust-bin or a drain, meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates, so too, these bald recluses, these swarthy menial offspring of the Kinsman's feet, claim: "We are meditators, we are meditators!" and with shoulders drooping, heads down and all limp, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate.' Now, Evil One, on that occasion most of those human beings, when they died, reappeared on the dissolution of the body, after death, in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.
Thank you. This is confusing because it's coming from Mara.
Yes, in the very least one can assume that to describe an ascetic’s meditation in those terms meant it was being done incorrectly.

Check AN 11.9 and MN 19 for descriptions that do not involve being absorbed into a single object that excludes everything else.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by befriend »

My understanding of mindfulness is that you have a home base you focus on like rising and falling of the abdomen then when a feeling, mental state, or sensation arises that is strong enough to pull your attention away from the home base you then focus on your new object until it passes then return to the home base.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

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Moth wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:39 pm

Thank you. This is confusing because it's coming from Mara.
Not all Mara are bad.
Some are good. They are a kind of living in the Deva realm.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Moth »

The common understanding of Samadhi style meditation is that it's single pointedness of mind, ekaggatta. This monk, unless I'm misunderanding, seems to be implying that this is a wrong view. However, even if you take the Sutta he is referencing, it could still be argued that the owl is focusing incorrectly because it focuses with craving for food, it still has sensual desire. It may not be the case that focusing itself is not the correct method.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by SarathW »

Moth wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:23 am The common understanding of Samadhi style meditation is that it's single pointedness of mind, ekaggatta. This monk, unless I'm misunderanding, seems to be implying that this is a wrong view. However, even if you take the Sutta he is referencing, it could still be argued that the owl is focusing incorrectly because it focuses with craving for food, it still has sensual desire. It may not be the case that focusing itself is not the correct method.
Agree.
He focuses correctly on a wrong, inappropriate, unsuitable object.
This is called wrong concentration ( Mitya Samadhi).
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Dhammavamsa »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:22 am
Moth wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:39 pm

Thank you. This is confusing because it's coming from Mara.
Not all Mara are bad.
Some are good. They are a kind of living in the Deva realm.
I thought there is only one Mara Devaputta who leading a host of retinue in Paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm (the rest of Maras are.more like psychological / body aspect), acting defiance to the Ruler of that heaven, Vasavatti Devaraja.

But sometimes Mara was known as Vasavatti too, since he endeavors to keep all beings in the grip of sensual pleasures.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Dhammanando »

Moth wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:31 pm In this talk Bhante references a sutta where the Buddha discourages meditating like "an owl hunting it's prey."
I think Ven. N. Ñānamoli is either misremembering what the sutta says or else never understood it properly in the first place.
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:24 pm Yes, in the very least one can assume that to describe an ascetic’s meditation in those terms meant it was being done incorrectly.
I suppose one could assume that, but I don't think it would be a reasonable assumption at all.

Firstly the meditating bhikkhus are described as "possessed of moral habit and of a lovely nature" (sīlavantā kalyāṇadhammā) - words that strongly imply that they were doing things right and weakly imply that they were ariyasāvakas.

Secondly the words "He meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates ... just as a jackal on a river-bank waiting for fish," are the tendentious judgment of hostile Māra-inspired householders. Why would anyone want to assume that they'd got things right?

Suppose I said to you, "I saw some Muslims praying in the marketplace today. They were baying and bawling, squealing and squalling, yowling and yawping, ululating and caterwauling like banshees, and annoying the heck out of everybody with their uvular consonants." Which would be the more reasonable assumption:

"Dhammānando's report is that of a hostile witness who has an aversion to Islam or to praying in public places or to the sound of the Arabic language."

Or:

"The Muslims weren't praying properly?"

:shrug:
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by SDC »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:21 am
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:24 pm Yes, in the very least one can assume that to describe an ascetic’s meditation in those terms meant it was being done incorrectly.
I suppose one could assume that, but I don't think it would be a reasonable assumption at all.
Hi Bhante,

Perhaps my short statement was not very clear. My point was that the description by these corrupted householders wouldn’t even have necessarily taken an accurate account of how the monks appeared into consideration, but was purely meant to imply that whatever they were doing was wrong. For instance, even if their shoulders were not drooping and they were not sitting as an owl waits for a mouse, the householders nevertheless described them as such to insult them and to create the impression of someone who did not know what they were doing. The language was derogatory in its intent.

Indeed it is not possible to know whether or not a monk “meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditate” just by their external appearance.

Furthermore, I mentioned those other two suttas to give the OP better examples of the concept being described in the talk since this example from MN 50 was not very clear. In AN 11.9 for example, the wild colt, when put in front of the trowel just considers the food right there in front of him and nothing more, while the thoroughbred horse is smart enough to know that his master is feeding him for a reason, so he wisely considers more than just the food in front of him.
Last edited by SDC on Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by form »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:56 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:22 am
Moth wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:39 pm

Thank you. This is confusing because it's coming from Mara.
Not all Mara are bad.
Some are good. They are a kind of living in the Deva realm.
I thought there is only one Mara Devaputta who leading a host of retinue in Paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm (the rest of Maras are.more like psychological / body aspect), acting defiance to the Ruler of that heaven, Vasavatti Devaraja.

But sometimes Mara was known as Vasavatti too, since he endeavors to keep all beings in the grip of sensual pleasures.
What is vasavatti?
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Dhammavamsa »

form wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 am
Dhammavamsa wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:56 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:22 am

Not all Mara are bad.
Some are good. They are a kind of living in the Deva realm.
I thought there is only one Mara Devaputta who leading a host of retinue in Paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm (the rest of Maras are.more like psychological / body aspect), acting defiance to the Ruler of that heaven, Vasavatti Devaraja.

But sometimes Mara was known as Vasavatti too, since he endeavors to keep all beings in the grip of sensual pleasures.
What is vasavatti?
Name of the Paranimmitavasavatti Heaven's Leader, or Ruler. Whichever your preference.

More like a title than a name.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by form »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:41 am
form wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:20 am
Dhammavamsa wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:56 am

I thought there is only one Mara Devaputta who leading a host of retinue in Paranimmitavasavatti Deva realm (the rest of Maras are.more like psychological / body aspect), acting defiance to the Ruler of that heaven, Vasavatti Devaraja.

But sometimes Mara was known as Vasavatti too, since he endeavors to keep all beings in the grip of sensual pleasures.
What is vasavatti?
Name of the Paranimmitavasavatti Heaven's Leader, or Ruler. Whichever your preference.

More like a title than a name.
OK. He is a Deva leader of desire realm.
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Re: Focusing like an Owl

Post by Mkoll »

SDC wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:16 amFurthermore, I mentioned those other two suttas to give the OP better examples of the concept being described in the talk since this example from MN 50 was not very clear. In AN 11.9 for example, the wild colt, when put in front of the trowel just considers the food right there in front of him and nothing more, while the thoroughbred horse is smart enough to know that his master is feeding him for a reason, so he wisely considers more than just the food in front of him.
Another sutta along similar lines is SN 47.8, below translated by Ven. Bodhi and taken from suttacentral.net:
47.8. The Cook

i. The incompetent cook

“Bhikkhus, suppose a foolish, incompetent, unskilful cook were to present a king or a royal minister with various kinds of curries: sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, sharp, mild, salty, bland.
“That foolish, incompetent, unskilful cook does not pick up the sign of his own master’s preference: ‘Today this curry pleased my master, or he reached for this one, or he took a lot of this one, or he spoke in praise of this one; or the sour curry pleased my master today, or he reached for the sour one, or he took a lot of the sour one, or he spoke in praise of the sour one; or the bitter curry … or the pungent curry … or the sweet curry … or the sharp curry … or the mild curry … or the salty curry … or the bland curry pleased my master … or he spoke in praise of the bland one.’

“That foolish, incompetent, unskilful cook does not gain gifts of clothing, wages, and bonuses. For what reason? Because that foolish, incompetent, unskilful cook does not pick up the sign of his own master’s preference.

“So too, bhikkhus, here some foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, his mind does not become concentrated, his corruptions are not abandoned, he does not pick up that sign.

“That foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not gain pleasant dwellings in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness and clear comprehension. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not pick up the sign of his own mind.

ii. The competent cook

“Suppose, bhikkhus, a wise, competent, skilful cook were to present a king or a royal minister with various kinds of curries: sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, sharp, mild, salty, bland.

“That wise, competent, skilful cook picks up the sign of his own master’s preference: ‘Today this curry pleased my master … or he spoke in praise of the bland one.’

“That wise, competent, skilful cook gains gifts of clothing, wages, and bonuses. For what reason? Because that wise, competent, skilful cook picks up the sign of his own master’s preference.

“So too, bhikkhus, here some wise, competent, skilful bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating the body in the body, his mind becomes concentrated, his corruptions are abandoned, he picks up that sign. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, his mind becomes concentrated, his corruptions are abandoned, he picks up that sign.

“That wise, competent, skilful bhikkhu gains pleasant dwellings in this very life, and he gains mindfulness and clear comprehension. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that wise, competent, skilful bhikkhu picks up the sign of his own mind.”
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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