Is chanting clearly Silabbata Paramasa ???

[DooDoot]

Dear forum

I read the following in the internet:

Chanting don't make you a real Buddha follower. That's clearly Silabbata paramasa.

Please discuss

[Nicolas]

“There are these five dangers in reciting the Teaching by singing in a drawn-out fashion: one delights in the sound; others delight in the sound; householders criticize it; for one who takes pleasure in the melody, the concentration is disrupted; later generations follow one’s example.

You should not recite the Teaching by singing in a drawn-out fashion. If you do, you commit an offense of wrong conduct.”

Being afraid of wrongdoing, the monks did not chant. They told the Buddha.

“I allow chanting.”

[Coëmgenu]

Chanting alone obviously isn't what makes you a "real Buddha follower," even if what is being chanted is the super secret password that you got off your Buddha decoder ring. Neither chanting the refuge to the triple gem nor chanting the evening or morning monastic services will "make you a real Buddha follower." If such were the case, that chanting alone did the trick, everyone can convert to Nichiren Buddhism and chant the title of the Lotus Sutra. Since that isn't the case, no one need do that.

[mjaviem]

Dear forum

I read the following in the internet:

Chanting don't make you a real Buddha follower. That's clearly Silabbata paramasa.

...

That looks like ven. Buddhadasa's words:

... Crying out Buddham saranam gacchami and so on is just a ritual, a ceremony of entrance and is an external matter; it doesn't penetrate to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in the heart... (—Heartwood of the bodhi tree.)

[SarathW]

Isn't chanting is a way of memorising and a way to communicated Dhamma?

[asahi]

Dont the monks do chanting (reciting) of the vinaya ? Is that to be considered as Silabbata paramasa ? It doesnt seem so .
For most lay peoples chanting of suttas (paritta) does help to focus more their mind in wholesome activity and develop a sense of sincerity , devotion and respectfulness .

[DooDoot]

Dear forum

I read the following in the internet:

Chanting don't make you a real Buddha follower. That's clearly Silabbata paramasa.

...

That looks like ven. Buddhadasa's words:

... Crying out Buddham saranam gacchami and so on is just a ritual, a ceremony of entrance and is an external matter; it doesn't penetrate to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in the heart... (—Heartwood of the bodhi tree.)

Dhammavamsa agrees with a viewpoint of Buddhadasa.

However, the monks at Buddhadasa's monastery chanted every morning & evening; near Buddhadasa's kuti (hut).



Plus Buddhadasa's monastery always had the view below about the benefits of chanting.

[DooDoot]

Isn't chanting is a way of memorising and a way to communicated Dhamma?

Correct. Certain individuals appear to believe the following is the essence of the Buddha-Dhamma:

Wow... Buddha's talks on heaven, hell, this world, another world, Asuras wars with Devas, Peta, how Devas visited Him for teachings, Mara army, Nagas and Supannas, Supernormal powers through Jhanic powers...

But when you do Pali chanting, you learn the following truths:

LEADER:
(HANDA MAYANG DHAMMA BHITHUTING KAROMA SE)
Now, let us chant in praise of the Dhamma.
YO SO SAVAKKHATO BHAGAVATA DHAMMO
The Dhamnia well-expounded by the Blessed One
SANDITIKO
For one who learns and practices will realize by oneself,
AKALIKO
Being able to practice with fruitful result and no limited time,
EHIPASSIKO
Can inviting others to come and see,
OPANAYIKO
Leading inward, deeper into the heart,
PACCATTANG VEDITABBO VINYUHI
To be seen and experienced by the wise.

SANGKHI PANCUPADANAKKHANDHA DUKKHANG
In brief, the five focuses of the grasping mind, are sufferings,
SEYYATHIDANG
Which are as follows:
RUPUPADANAKKHANDHO
Identification with the Body,
VEDANUPADANAKKHANDHO
Identification with feeling,
SANYUPADANAKKHANDHO
Identification with mental perception,
SANGKHARUPADANAKKHANDHO
Identification with mental formations ,
VINYANUPADANAKKHANDHO
Identification with consciousness
YESANG PARINYAYA
For the complete understanding of this,
DHARMANO SO BHAGAVA
The Blessed one, in his lifetime.
EVANG BAHULANG SAVAKE VINETI
Frequently instructed his disciples in just this way.

EVANG BHAGA CA PANASSA BHAGAVATO SAVAKESU ANUSASANI BAHULA PAVATTATI,
in addition, the Blessed one, further instructed his disciples thus:
RUPANG ANICCANG
The body is impermanent.
VEDANA ANICCA
Feeling is impermanent.
SANYA ANICCA
Mental perception is impermanant.
SANKHARA ANICCA
Mental formations are impermanent
VINYANANG ANICCANG
Consciousness is impermanent.
RUPANG ANATTA
The body is not self.
VEDANA ANATTA
Feeling is not self.
SANYA ANATTA
Mental perception is not selves.
SANGKHARA ANATTA
Mental formations are not self.
VINYANANG ANATFA
Consciousness is not self.
SABBE SANKHARA ANICCA
All conditioned things are impermanent.
SABBE DHAMMA ANATTA TI
All natures whatsoever are not selves.

https://methika.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... anting.pdf

[Dhammavamsa]

Isn't chanting is a way of memorising and a way to communicated Dhamma?

Imo, recite the Dhamma is important for preserve and promote learning, thus mastery of the scriptures. But one is not necessary to chant any scriptures to be a legit Buddha follower.

I practice chanting too in order to memorise the Suttas but for me It is just an useful tool for practice and not compulsory for path and fruit development.

For example, Cula Panthaka Bhikkhu don't even able to memorise a simple short 4 sentence Gatha (given that he is speaking the Magadhan as a living language of that time). He failed in memorise and recite any 4 sentence Gatha given by his elder brother, an Arahant thera named Maha Panthaka.

Arahant Maha Panthaka said to his brother something like "you are not fit to be one of us" or similar and therefore left Cula Panthaka Bhikkhu, bring all enlightened monks and others attending meal offering event along with Buddha. Cula Panthaka Bhikkhu left alone in the monastery, saddened and alone helplessly.

Yet, the Buddha didn't abandon him because of not able to recite verses. Buddha, while sitting along with other monks in the Dana event, creating a Manomaya Kaya protecting in front of Cula Panthaka at the monastery afar. Buddha taught him meditation and later Cula Panthaka became one of the mighty Arahant endowed with psychic powers.

So, recite verses aren't necessarily make someone a Buddhist or not Buddhist. Imho, It is the understanding that makes one Buddhist or not Buddhist.


That is just my understanding on this matter.

If reciting is really the rule that determine one is Buddhist or not, there you have Thai monks that recite endlessly with all sorts of Gathas and hymns.

[Dhammavamsa]

Dear forum

I read the following in the internet:

...

That looks like ven. Buddhadasa's words:

... Crying out Buddham saranam gacchami and so on is just a ritual, a ceremony of entrance and is an external matter; it doesn't penetrate to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in the heart... (—Heartwood of the bodhi tree.)

Dhammavamsa agrees with a viewpoint of Buddhadasa.

However, the monks at Buddhadasa's monastery chanted every morning & evening; near Buddhadasa's kuti (hut).



Plus Buddhadasa's monastery always had the view below about the benefits of chanting.

Out of all his controversial teachings, this I can agree wholeheartedly. Buddhists are supposed to be developed based on Dana, Sila, Bhavana. Not mere chanting like those Brahmins. Chanting by nature is a good practice for learning, but doesn't make one a true follower.

*It seems your post indicated that my disagreement with his ideas involved prejudice, but that is not the case, I want to follow the Vibhajjavada tradition as established by 3rd Sangayana council, to analyse before giving comment.*

There is a subtle difference here.
Chanting Pali Tipitaka during Sangayana and Patimokkha is different case here, the monks did that to preserve the teachings, it is their duty as a monk (Sanghakamma). But recite those scriptures will not necessarily lead one to full Enlightenment.

While your previous post seemingly claimed that chanting is defining one's status as a Buddhist or not. That is another case. Since you are also reading Suttas, I believe you encountered many common people, kings, ascetics, Brahmins, Yakkhas, Devas, sectarians, etc. having listened to Buddha Dhamma, gladdened, askee Buddha to remember them as lay follower (Upasaka or Upasika). There was no Gathas involved, just normal conversation.

And one of your subsequent comment saying that reciting Dhamma can learn truths... Well, what about Dhamma talks? What about reading? What about discussing?

And what is the relation with Buddha mentioning on those beings from different worlds has to do with recitation?

Reciting verses like a parrot do won't help us far. In the end, we need to have the understanding to penetrate further. You can't possibly just by reciting Panca Sila alone then automatically you are a good person.

[Dhammavamsa]

Dont the monks do chanting (reciting) of the vinaya ? Is that to be considered as Silabbata paramasa ? It doesnt seem so .
For most lay peoples chanting of suttas (paritta) does help to focus more their mind in wholesome activity and develop a sense of sincerity , devotion and respectfulness .

Chanting Vinaya during Patimokkha event is Sanghakamma, or duty of monks. It functions to review their precepts and practice. Paritta chanting among laypeople is to appreciate the Dhammas, creating protection (physical or mental), and invoke the blessings of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

Both these two events are wholesome and encouraged. But these two practices do not necessarily lead one to Enlightenment, as far as all of us can tell from the teachings.

If one thinking that by reciting a certain verse or Paritta will make him or her a Saint, that's Silabbata paramasa. Buddha never create Gathas or mantras for the sake of quick enlightenment scheme.

[asahi]

Dont the monks do chanting (reciting) of the vinaya ? Is that to be considered as Silabbata paramasa ? It doesnt seem so .
For most lay peoples chanting of suttas (paritta) does help to focus more their mind in wholesome activity and develop a sense of sincerity , devotion and respectfulness .

Chanting Vinaya during Patimokkha event is Sanghakamma, or duty of monks. It functions to review their precepts and practice. Paritta chanting among laypeople is to appreciate the Dhammas, creating protection (physical or mental), and invoke the blessings of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

Both these two events are wholesome and encouraged. But these two practices do not necessarily lead one to Enlightenment, as far as all of us can tell from the teachings.

If one thinking that by reciting a certain verse or Paritta will make him or her a Saint, that's Silabbata paramasa. Buddha never create Gathas or mantras for the sake of quick enlightenment scheme.

Silabbata paramasa per your definition means that almost all wholesome action itself cant leads to liberation !

Silabbata paramasa doesnt mean you dont do things that dont lead to liberation .
Observing buddhist sila alone doesnt leads you to liberation . Practice jhana alone dont leads you to liberation . So the question is that chanting is label as Silabbata paramasa is something unnnecesary but rather in the practice , one knows what is wholesome and unwholesome but at the same time understand the observing of "sila" such as stands on one leg practice , eat only 1 granule of wheat or never cut the hairs and nails etc etc thinking it will leads to liberation is Silabbata paramasa .

[DooDoot]

Out of all his controversial teachings, this I can agree wholeheartedly.

Buddhadasa was once the head monk of Southern Thailand in charge of monk instruction. His books fill one room in National Library. He translated many suttas. He represented Thailand at the 6th Buddhist Council. Most of his teachings are standard Buddhism.

Buddhists are supposed to be developed based on Dana, Sila, Bhavana.

The Buddha called his Path sila, samadhi & panna. Buddhadasa primarily taught panna.

[DooDoot]

Silabbata paramasa per your definition means that almost all wholesome action itself cant leads to liberation !

Silabbata paramasa doesnt mean you dont do things that dont lead to liberation ..

[Dhammavamsa]

Dont the monks do chanting (reciting) of the vinaya ? Is that to be considered as Silabbata paramasa ? It doesnt seem so .
For most lay peoples chanting of suttas (paritta) does help to focus more their mind in wholesome activity and develop a sense of sincerity , devotion and respectfulness .

Chanting Vinaya during Patimokkha event is Sanghakamma, or duty of monks. It functions to review their precepts and practice. Paritta chanting among laypeople is to appreciate the Dhammas, creating protection (physical or mental), and invoke the blessings of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

Both these two events are wholesome and encouraged. But these two practices do not necessarily lead one to Enlightenment, as far as all of us can tell from the teachings.

If one thinking that by reciting a certain verse or Paritta will make him or her a Saint, that's Silabbata paramasa. Buddha never create Gathas or mantras for the sake of quick enlightenment scheme.

Silabbata paramasa per your definition means that almost all wholesome action itself cant leads to liberation !

Silabbata paramasa doesnt mean you dont do things that dont lead to liberation .
Observing buddhist sila alone doesnt leads you to liberation . Practice jhana alone dont leads you to liberation . So the question is that chanting is label as Silabbata paramasa is something unnnecesary but rather in the practice , one knows what is wholesome and unwholesome but at the same time understand the observing of "sila" such as stands on one leg practice , eat only 1 granule of wheat or never cut the hairs and nails etc etc thinking it will leads to liberation is Silabbata paramasa .

Why you take one sided view of everything? Be middle way.

I don't comment here saying chanting is not good. In fact, I said it was encouraged (see my post) and it is necessary for learning and preserve.

The main point here is: Chanting alone doesn't lead to Enlightenment. And if a person think by reciting gatha or mantras alone can make a person gain Enlightenment, that makes that person similar to those misguided ones.

Consider this:
One extreme: Chanting is not good. Prohibit chanting.

Another extreme: Only chanting is way to Enlightenment.

Middle: Chanting is good and wholesome. Yet still more need to be done, such as Sila, Samadhi etc.

I am taking the middle point of view and don't really see why we need to disagree.