Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 16617
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 8478
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
My understanding is that there are still those other fetters to break, so not everything has been learnt. But on the other hand, their progress is irrevocable, and they are destined for the final goal. Perhaps the speed of their progress, and how happy they remain in this life, is determined by how much Dhamma they learn in this life.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7480
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Aloka »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am
Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
To quote Ajahn Chah:
Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. What you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.”
:anjali:
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4960
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by confusedlayman »

u still need to break other fetters
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
Posts: 16617
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:50 am u still need to break other fetters
Agree.
My question is whether you still have to read the Sutta and follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
Consider a case a person dies as a Sotapanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4960
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:52 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:50 am u still need to break other fetters
Agree.
My question is whether you still have to read the Sutta and follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
Consider a case a person dies as a Sotapanna.
if someone become sotapanna, he must have arrived by seeing 5 aggregates as non self and impermanent suffering and removing self view... similarly using same seeing of.5 aggregates as non self, Annica dukka he removed other fetters like anger or lust etc

if a person dies sotapanna he reborn in heaven and can be taught by gods or monk who can teach gods or someone who can remember himself...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Spiny Norman
Posts: 8331
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
Sotapannas have "entered the stream", and have presumably internalised enough Dhamma to be self-sustaining on the path.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

It seems sotapanna still have unfinish tasks to be continued until arhant .


[Ven. MahaKotthita:] "Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

[Ven. Sariputta:] "A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

[Ven. MahaKotthita:] "Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

[Ven. Sariputta:] "A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

[Ven. MahaKotthita:] "Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

[Ven. Sariputta:] "A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

[Ven. MahaKotthita:] "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

[Ven. Sariputta:] "An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."

— SN 22.122
SarathW
Posts: 16617
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Agree.
But you already know this when you become a Sotapanna.
So you don't have to learn it again.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11398
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
If you are Non-Returner, I imagine you still have to learn Dhamma.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
asahi
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:25 am Agree.
But you already know this when you become a Sotapanna.
So you don't have to learn it again.
A diligent person would want to learn more . Sotapanna may not be proficient in samadhi and dhamma knowledge .
Dhammavamsa
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:57 pm

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

I think as long as I am a Sekha, I will still do Pariyatti.
Deleted
User avatar
Dhamma Chameleon
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

The suttas say you become an Arahant by hearing the dhamma, which makes me think that you need to keep hearing (/studying) dhamma all the way to the end.
User avatar
anthbrown84
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:59 am

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by anthbrown84 »

Once you become a Sotapanna you are independent of the need of a tea her, although they sure do make things easier... if they're more advanced of course.

But of course you do, you are not an Arahant yet, so there is more to learn (more to let go of actually is a better descriptions here).

A lazy Sotapanna can fall over multiple times, but the fact is they will get there e eventually, but the work is not done for them, everything none Dhamma just starts to become less and less attractive. The lazier you become, the harder life gets, so why would you not apply yourself?

I heard a monk once say be careful what you wish for...he meant, if you wish to become a stream enterer dont be surprised if life becomes a struggle if you try to just laze your way through it :)
"Your job in practise is to know the difference between the heart and the activity of the heart, that is it, it is that simple" Ajahn Tate
Spiny Norman
Posts: 8331
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:10 pm The suttas say you become an Arahant by hearing the dhamma, which makes me think that you need to keep hearing (/studying) dhamma all the way to the end.
I wonder though about the difference between hearing the Dhamma, and internalising/realising this knowledge. If you get the basic principles of something, if you really feel it, then the rest flows naturally with experience.
To use a trivial comparison, I remember learning the basics of sailing on a course. Having done the course and learned the basic skills, I became an independent learner. I still had a lot to learn, but I knew how to develop the skill, and who to ask.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Post Reply