Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by thepea »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:41 pm
thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:25 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
You really don’t have to do anything, you have freedom as inevitability.
Do as you like.
It is incorrect to say "Do as you like"
Sotapanna still follows the Noble Eightfold Path.
A sotapanna can do whatever they like, or that which feels good. They are not bound to any rules.
Inevitably the clearing of past kamma will complete.
Bundokji
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:08 pm In my opinion that Sotapanna has eliminated the three fetters so he has clearly understood the Avija.
Could you explain what is meant by Sankharta and Dhamma, please?
For a puthujjana, avijjā is the defining line between mundane and supramundane understanding of the teachings. A mundane understanding is siding with merit and seeking favorable future rebirths. For a noble disciple, avijjā is the last of the five higher fetters of which only Arahants are freed from.

Distinguishing sankhara from dhamma has to do with being freed from the first three fetters. Avijjā is the tenth fetter.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Inedible
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Inedible »

Samsara has no discernable beginning. That is why there is no limit to the size of the bodies, blood, and tears that we have left behind. It keeps saying so in the Suttas. It would be even greater the amount of bad karma from the past. We can't clear it all away.

The topic was about whether a Stream Enterer needs to know more to become an Arhat. If study is required. We can't answer that because it varies too much in how a person became a Stream Enterer. There are a lot of us here who have memorized all the information required to finish the job, and it seems to have been common back in Buddha's time to get the job done with vastly less instruction. Something other than study is missing.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:46 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:41 pm
thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:25 pm

You really don’t have to do anything, you have freedom as inevitability.
Do as you like.
It is incorrect to say "Do as you like"
Sotapanna still follows the Noble Eightfold Path.
A sotapanna can do whatever they like, or that which feels good. They are not bound to any rules.
Inevitably the clearing of past kamma will complete.
Any sutta reference that Sotapanna can do whatever they like? Or the clearing of past kamma?
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thepea
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by thepea »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:46 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:41 pm

It is incorrect to say "Do as you like"
Sotapanna still follows the Noble Eightfold Path.
A sotapanna can do whatever they like, or that which feels good. They are not bound to any rules.
Inevitably the clearing of past kamma will complete.
Any sutta reference that Sotapanna can do whatever they like? Or the clearing of past kamma?
Don’t know.
But.... isn’t there something about seven lifetimes remaining? That kinda says it all.
Now you could speed things up and collapse the dam quicker but... the dam is cracked and no force in existence can prevent the inevitable.
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

thepea wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:43 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 am
thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:46 pm

A sotapanna can do whatever they like, or that which feels good. They are not bound to any rules.
Inevitably the clearing of past kamma will complete.
Any sutta reference that Sotapanna can do whatever they like? Or the clearing of past kamma?
Don’t know.
But.... isn’t there something about seven lifetimes remaining? That kinda says it all.
Now you could speed things up and collapse the dam quicker but... the dam is cracked and no force in existence can prevent the inevitable.
But the sentence "A sotapanna can do whatever they like" is disturbing. I'm sure Buddha never said something like that.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:58 pm But the sentence "A sotapanna can do whatever they like" is disturbing. I'm sure Buddha never said something like that.
I don't think that he did, I think he encouraged everyone at every stage to keep practicing diligently. However, if you consider that a sotapanna would simply never like to do something that would harm another being or be considered serious misconduct, I suppose you could say that they can do anything they like. It's a moot point because the way that I understand stream entry (as others here have mentioned) is that you are now moving along with the current towards Nibanna and your whole being will naturally be inclined to further purification of wisdom and virtue. The sotapanna *likes* doing the things that lead there.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:01 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:58 pm But the sentence "A sotapanna can do whatever they like" is disturbing. I'm sure Buddha never said something like that.
I don't think that he did, I think he encouraged everyone at every stage to keep practicing diligently. However, if you consider that a sotapanna would simply never like to do something that would harm another being or be considered serious misconduct, I suppose you could say that they can do anything they like. It's a moot point because the way that I understand stream entry (as others here have mentioned) is that you are now moving along with the current towards Nibanna and your whole being will naturally be inclined to further purification of wisdom and virtue. The sotapanna *likes* doing the things that lead there.
:goodpost:
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by cappuccino »

There are cases like Visakha, who was a sotapanna at 7 years… after, she got married. Even after… Visakha will spend a long time in samsara - but only in very good conditions.

Thus sotapanna and sakadagami can still enjoy sex. Nevertheless, they are on the path that gradually wears away sense desire…
:quote:
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by confusedlayman »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:34 pm
There are cases like Visakha, who was a sotapanna at 7 years… after, she got married. Even after… Visakha will spend a long time in samsara - but only in very good conditions.

Thus sotapanna and sakadagami can still enjoy sex. Nevertheless, they are on the path that gradually wears away sense desire…
:quote:
Do you think visakha enjoyed sex so much that lead to 10 child? Having child is suffering so sotapanna wont have child .. u think visakha purposely having 10 child and then many grandchild and crying over death of granddaugther like greiving is done by ariya?

I am a begiiner and i myself dont want to have kids because i visualize worst possible scenario
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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cappuccino
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:18 pm Do you think visakha enjoyed sex so much that lead to 10 child?
Visakha was very beautiful
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by confusedlayman »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:19 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:18 pm Do you think visakha enjoyed sex so much that lead to 10 child?
Visakha was very beautiful
No.. i visualize her a fat aunty
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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cappuccino
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:23 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:19 pm Visakha was very beautiful
No…
Punnavaddhanna did not want to marry and described a woman of beauty he thought was impossible to find as the only woman he would marry. Because of this, Migara hired a set of brahmins to find a woman that met Punnavaddhanna's description.

The brahmins searched many cities until … the brahmins noticed that Visakha had all of the traits Punnavaddhana described and they proposed to her on his behalf, which Visakha accepted.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visakha
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

The standard of beauty in the past could be very different from now.

In the past, western women were used to wear big hip dress and corset. But now all the SJW woke culture (especially USA), the standard of beauty is so different (I think we can't even use 'beauty', that would be women objectification).

I always wonder what indian people would look like during Buddha's time
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thepea
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by thepea »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:58 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:43 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 am

Any sutta reference that Sotapanna can do whatever they like? Or the clearing of past kamma?
Don’t know.
But.... isn’t there something about seven lifetimes remaining? That kinda says it all.
Now you could speed things up and collapse the dam quicker but... the dam is cracked and no force in existence can prevent the inevitable.
But the sentence "A sotapanna can do whatever they like" is disturbing. I'm sure Buddha never said something like that.
I don’t know if buddha said that?
But.... a sotapanna said this.
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