Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

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cappuccino
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:42 am To quote Ajahn Chah:
When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
early stage…
Inedible
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Inedible »

Think of it like this. After putting in all the time, effort, study, practice, and so on to become a Stream Enterer ... would you even consider stopping your efforts? Sure, you are finally safe, but there are seven fetters left. I can only imagine what that is like, but weakening the next two fetters seems like a reasonable thing to want to do.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

They still need to learn how to enter Jhana. That will likely involve some instruction.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Alino »

Sotapanna understood dukkha as dukkha.
From this understanding he naturally avoid creating dukkha for himself and others.
By purifying his body and mind in such way he see more subtiles dukkhas and naturally abandons it until Arahantship. Like someone who see dirt as dirt, naturally cleans it by following N8P.

Sotapanna still need observe his mind, and learn about it's different dukkhas in order to purify it further. He no need to learn doctrinal things (but he can, and will certainly do it, because of his love of Dhamma), but his concern is only about practice, about his dukkha and freedom from it.

Doing good, avoiding bad, purifying the mind.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by sunnat »

From the foreword to Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's discourse on the Anattalakhana Sutta :

"The Lord Buddha delivered the First Sermon, concerning the Four Noble Truths, to the five ascetics. That sermon is called the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Great Discourse on the Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma, or Righteousness. This Great Discourse was the first teaching given by the Blessed One, and was delivered on the eve of Saturday, the full moon of July, exactly two months after His attainment of Supreme Enlightenment.

At the close of this First Sermon, Koṇdañña, the leader of the five ascetics, became a Stream Enterer (Sotāpanna). By attaining the stage of Stream Entry he removed all doubts about the truth of the Dhamma and the misconception of sakkāya, "self" or living entity. Nevertheless, self-pride (māna) still lingered in his mind. The remaining four ascetics had not yet realized the special Dhamma, "the awakening of higher consciousness."

As self-pride or personal ego still had its grip on Koṇdañña, and as Vappa and the other three of the Group of Five bhikkhus had not yet obtained the "pure and spotless Dhamma Eye," the Blessed One went on teaching and urged them to contemplate and note along the lines of vipassanā (insight meditation). After diligent meditation they all eventually reached the stage of Stream Enterer, thereby removing their attachment to self-view. Venerable Vappa gained progressive insight on the first waning day of July, Bhaddiya on the second day, Mahānāma on the third day, and Assaji on the fourth day.

The Lord Buddha then summoned the whole Group of Five bhikkhus and taught them His second sermon, setting forth the famous anattā (not-self) doctrine. It was on Thursday, the 5th waning day of July. On hearing the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, all five attained Arahatship, by virtue of which they were entirely free from all human passions, including māna, conceit. The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, as its name implies, clearly expounded the doctrine of "not-self' as opposed to the false view of "self".

The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta is not a lengthy piece. In the original book published by the Sixth Buddhist Council, it covered only one page. In the Sutta, there is no mention of meditation methods or techniques for contemplation. The teaching was more concerned with natural truth than practical methods. Hence it would be difficult for those unacquainted with the methods of vipassanā meditation to appreciate the reality of not-self described in this Sutta. It was possible for the five ascetics only because the sermon was delivered by the Lord Buddha himself, and because they -- the listening audience -- happened to be of keen intellect. These five had not only been endowed with mature experience since hearing the Dhammacakka Sutta, but had also reached the stage of Stream Enterer. Thus their speedy attainment of Arahatship.

During the lifetime of Lord Buddha, people with keen intellect and mature perfections (paramitā), like the Group of Five, achieved Path and Fruit (magga-phala) while listening to sermons by the Blessed One. Of course, these attainments were not gained without diligently practicing vipassanā meditation. The Special Dhamma was attained only because they had been able to devote themselves to ardent meditation, deep concentration and keen contemplation, and it was only those few with good knowledge or adequate past perfections who were capable of doing so. Many could not possibly contemplate and note with such great speed.

Despite this fact, there are idlers who will knowingly say: "If one understand the nature of not-self through the teachings, it is not necessary to practice. One can achieve Path and Fruit merely by listening to the teaching." With this kind of wishful thinking they place themselves on the plane of the Noble Ones. Such concepts being entertained by a class of lazy-bones, the number of people who have so become self-made Noble Ones through simply listening to sermons would not be few. The kind of knowledge of not-self gleaned from listening to sermons without practicing vipassanā meditation is not a true, personal realization, but mere book-knowledge. If Path and Fruit insight knowledge (magga-phala-ñāṇa) could be realized in this manner, almost every Buddhist who knows the doctrine of not-self could be considered an Arahat. "
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

— SN 13.1
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

sunnat wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:24 pm From the foreword to Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's discourse on the Anattalakhana Sutta :

"The Lord Buddha delivered the First Sermon, concerning the Four Noble Truths, to the five ascetics. That sermon is called the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Great Discourse on the Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma, or Righteousness. This Great Discourse was the first teaching given by the Blessed One, and was delivered on the eve of Saturday, the full moon of July, exactly two months after His attainment of Supreme Enlightenment.

At the close of this First Sermon, Koṇdañña, the leader of the five ascetics, became a Stream Enterer (Sotāpanna). By attaining the stage of Stream Entry he removed all doubts about the truth of the Dhamma and the misconception of sakkāya, "self" or living entity. Nevertheless, self-pride (māna) still lingered in his mind. The remaining four ascetics had not yet realized the special Dhamma, "the awakening of higher consciousness."

As self-pride or personal ego still had its grip on Koṇdañña, and as Vappa and the other three of the Group of Five bhikkhus had not yet obtained the "pure and spotless Dhamma Eye," the Blessed One went on teaching and urged them to contemplate and note along the lines of vipassanā (insight meditation). After diligent meditation they all eventually reached the stage of Stream Enterer, thereby removing their attachment to self-view. Venerable Vappa gained progressive insight on the first waning day of July, Bhaddiya on the second day, Mahānāma on the third day, and Assaji on the fourth day.

The Lord Buddha then summoned the whole Group of Five bhikkhus and taught them His second sermon, setting forth the famous anattā (not-self) doctrine. It was on Thursday, the 5th waning day of July. On hearing the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, all five attained Arahatship, by virtue of which they were entirely free from all human passions, including māna, conceit. The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, as its name implies, clearly expounded the doctrine of "not-self' as opposed to the false view of "self".

The Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta is not a lengthy piece. In the original book published by the Sixth Buddhist Council, it covered only one page. In the Sutta, there is no mention of meditation methods or techniques for contemplation. The teaching was more concerned with natural truth than practical methods. Hence it would be difficult for those unacquainted with the methods of vipassanā meditation to appreciate the reality of not-self described in this Sutta. It was possible for the five ascetics only because the sermon was delivered by the Lord Buddha himself, and because they -- the listening audience -- happened to be of keen intellect. These five had not only been endowed with mature experience since hearing the Dhammacakka Sutta, but had also reached the stage of Stream Enterer. Thus their speedy attainment of Arahatship.

During the lifetime of Lord Buddha, people with keen intellect and mature perfections (paramitā), like the Group of Five, achieved Path and Fruit (magga-phala) while listening to sermons by the Blessed One. Of course, these attainments were not gained without diligently practicing vipassanā meditation. The Special Dhamma was attained only because they had been able to devote themselves to ardent meditation, deep concentration and keen contemplation, and it was only those few with good knowledge or adequate past perfections who were capable of doing so. Many could not possibly contemplate and note with such great speed.

Despite this fact, there are idlers who will knowingly say: "If one understand the nature of not-self through the teachings, it is not necessary to practice. One can achieve Path and Fruit merely by listening to the teaching." With this kind of wishful thinking they place themselves on the plane of the Noble Ones. Such concepts being entertained by a class of lazy-bones, the number of people who have so become self-made Noble Ones through simply listening to sermons would not be few. The kind of knowledge of not-self gleaned from listening to sermons without practicing vipassanā meditation is not a true, personal realization, but mere book-knowledge. If Path and Fruit insight knowledge (magga-phala-ñāṇa) could be realized in this manner, almost every Buddhist who knows the doctrine of not-self could be considered an Arahat. "
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Aloka
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Aloka »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:57 pm
Aloka wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:42 am To quote Ajahn Chah:
When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
early stage…
Well you would know about all the important stages of course, Great Master of Coffee froth and my "ignore" list!

Actually, my complete Ajahn Chah quote was:

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. What you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.”
:)
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »


Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. What you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.”
Did this Thai ajahn really said that? Any resource or link?

I find it really weird and seems contradict what Buddha taught in Vitakkasanthana sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el021.html
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:25 am
Did this Thai ajahn really said that? Any resource or link?

I find it really weird and seems contradict what Buddha taught in Vitakkasanthana sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el021.html
He really said that. Being and becoming in this context is about identification, wanting to own these attributes, seeing your self in them.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:30 am
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:25 am
Did this Thai ajahn really said that? Any resource or link?

I find it really weird and seems contradict what Buddha taught in Vitakkasanthana sutta...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el021.html
He really said that. Being and becoming in this context is about identification, wanting to own these attributes, seeing your self in them.
Thanks for the link. :thanks:
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Bundokji
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
I think the answer has to do with how avija is understood. The two truths model allows for two interpretations:

1- Avija as the inability to distinguish sankhara from dhamma. The sotapanna transcended that by virtue of overcoming doubt about the Buddha's teachings. In this context, the depth pf the dhamma is revealed and it is no longer a tool to generate virtue/merit/favorable rebirths. He knows those who know the dhamma and those who have the ability to speak eloquently about it.
2- Avija as the last fetter, which is when transcended, the knowledge of dhamma has been perfected. The training of the sotapanna in this context is perfecting his knowledge of higher truths, having an intensity and momentum by virtue of being immune from falling into lower realms of existence, which translates into definite rounds of rebirth in samsara.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:48 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
I think the answer has to do with how avija is understood. The two truths model allows for two interpretations:

1- Avija as the inability to distinguish sankhara from dhamma. The sotapanna transcended that by virtue of overcoming doubt about the Buddha's teachings. In this context, the depth pf the dhamma is revealed and it is no longer a tool to generate virtue/merit/favorable rebirths. He knows those who know the dhamma and those who have the ability to speak eloquently about it.
2- Avija as the last fetter, which is when transcended, the knowledge of dhamma has been perfected. The training of the sotapanna in this context is perfecting his knowledge of higher truths, having an intensity and momentum by virtue of being immune from falling into lower realms of existence, which translates into definite rounds of rebirth in samsara.
In my opinion that Sotapanna has eliminated the three fetters so he has clearly understood the Avija.
Could you explain what is meant by Sankharta and Dhamma, please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by thepea »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
You really don’t have to do anything, you have freedom as inevitability.
Do as you like.
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Re: Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

thepea wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:25 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:41 am Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?
You really don’t have to do anything, you have freedom as inevitability.
Do as you like.
It is incorrect to say "Do as you like"
Sotapanna still follows the Noble Eightfold Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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